Do Aliens Exist?

[Drakkenfyre]

Good companion post to Slacker's ghost thread, lol,

I personally believe they exist, we are simply one little planet in one Galaxy, one in millions upon millions upon millions upon millions of other Galaxies in this Universe, to think that we are the only lifeforms in that entire vast expanse is beyond arrogant,

what do you say?,

-Drakk )))

[Ibanez]

If we were evolutionised from life, then yes, we are the only life form.

If we were created from a higher being, I strictly doubt it.

[Cop]

Yes! Or this would be the biggest waste of space ever!

[Cop]

Originally posted by Ibanez
If we were evolutionised from life, then yes, we are the only life form.

If we were created from a higher being, I strictly doubt it.

Don't you mean the other way around?

[Ibanez]

Originally posted by Cop


Don't you mean the other way around?

Nope.

[Cop]

I mean, it it's evolution, then why can't life evolve anywhere else?
I'd sooner think that when everything is "created", it would just be us (and maybe a control group, lol)

[Ronhel]

Aliens exist in Virginia I seen the pics of some orbs some where I'll see if I can find them on Google for ya. :)

[Slacker]

rofl @ control group comment.

I tend to believe that it's just us, at least from the Christian standpoint. But then again, I concede that's there's stuff out there that can't be readily explained by religion, like the dinosaurs.

In other words, I just don't know.

[marianozz]

Originally posted by Ibanez
If we were evolutionised from life, then yes, we are the only life form.

If we were created from a higher being, I strictly doubt it.




mmm... Why couldnt there be another higher being in another galaxy that may have created another civ? :confused:

[DUKE HARDKNOCK]

Click. (http://www.clan-aa.com/temp/liaems.gif)

[Ibanez]

I think some of you are confusing my post.

What I mean is, the odds of another planet that is as perfect as the earth, is almost mathematically impossible. If you study the earth (and I mean REALLY look into how the earth is designed, the way it works, all the elements it needs to substain life, etc), and our solar system (milkyway) entire environment - Scientist will all pretty much come to the same conclusion - If all this happen by a big bang, then a evolutionary process, then its beyond miracle, and extremly doubtfull theres anything else in the unvierse like it.

Creation, however (a creator, a higher being, etc) you leave alot of possibility's open. When you put in the possibility of an Intelligent designer, then anything possible. The odds that other life like ours exist, is bound to be more, since the designer, or the supreme being, will have the power to beable to do it, perfectly.

That what I ment.
BTW - This topic is entirely speculation, no real hard proof facts on anything. So don't jump the gun on me.

[bt_refugee]

ALIEMS!!!!!

If we can exist then why the hell should "aliens" not...

[Drakkenfyre]

Originally posted by Ibanez
I think some of you are confusing my post.

What I mean is, the odds of another planet that is as perfect as the earth, is almost mathematically impossible. If you study the earth (and I mean REALLY look into how the earth is designed, the way it works, all the elements it needs to substain life, etc), and our solar system (milkyway) entire environment - Scientist will all pretty much come to the same conclusion - If all this happen by a big bang, then a evolutionary process, then its beyond miracle, and extremly doubtfull theres anything else in the unvierse like it.

Let me introduce you to the Drake Equation, written by Frank Drake in 1961, it focuses on on the factors which determine how many intelligent, communicating civilizations there are in our galaxy,

N = N* fp ne fl fi fc fL

"The equation can really be looked at as a number of questions:

N* represents the number of stars in the Milky Way Galaxy

Question: How many stars are in the Milky Way Galaxy?
Answer: Current estimates are around 200 billion.

fp is the fraction of stars that have planets around them

Question: What percentage of stars have planetary systems?
Answer: Thanks to advances in technology, new planets are being discovered every month. Within a few years we may have a reasonably accurate estimate. For now we'll say 20% (a standard estimate given by many including Frank Drake).

ne is the number of planets per star that are capable of sustaining life

Question: For each star that does have a planetary system, how many planets are capable of sustaining life?
Answer: If you base it on our solar system you might say 3 planets could possibly support life - Venus, Earth, and Mars. There is also the chance that one or more of Jupiter's moons could support life. If our system is typical the answer may be between 3 and 5.

fl is the fraction of planets in ne where life evolves
Question: On what percentage of the planets that are capable of sustaining life does life actually evolve?
Answer: Current guesses range from 100% (where life can evolve it will) down to close to 0%.

fi is the fraction of fl where intelligent life evolves

Question: On the planets where life does evolve, what percentage evolves intelligent life?
Answer: Guesses range from 100% (intelligence is such a survival advantage that it will certainly evolve) down to near 0%.

fc is the fraction of fi that communicate
Question: What percentage of intelligent races have the means and the desire to communicate?
Answer: Who knows? Let's guess 10% to 20%

fL is fraction of the planet's life during which the communicating civilizations live
Question: For each civilization that does communicate, for what fraction of the planet's life does the civilization survive?
Answer: This is the toughest of the questions. If we take Earth as an example, the expected lifetime of our Sun and the Earth is roughly 10 billion years. So far we've been communicating with radio waves for less than 100 years. How long will our civilization survive? Will we destroy ourselves in a few years like some predict or will we overcome our problems and survive for millennia? If we were destroyed tomorrow the answer to this question would be 1/100,000,000th. If we survive for another 10,000 years the answer will be 1/1,000,000th.

When all of these variables are multiplied together we come up with:

N the number of communicating civilizations in the galaxy.

The real value of the Drake Equation is not in the answer itself, but the questions that are prompted when attempting to come up with an answer. Obviously there is a tremendous amount of guess work involved when filling in the variables. As we learn more from astronomy, biology, and other sciences, we'll be able to better estimate the answers to the above questions.",

now, we are not talking about aliens contacting us, we are talking about existence to begin with so you could leave a little bit off at the end of the equation, but food for thought,

-Drakk )))

[EG]

hrmmmm

with all those galaxies with all those planets the odds have to be that there is more life out there.

[msan_msw]

Originally posted by Slacker
...that can't be readily explained by religion, like the dinosaurs.



Can't be explained by religion or can't be explained by the Bible? Can't be explained by the Bible or can't be explained by Christianity...? Can't be explained by Christianity or can't be explained by the people who tell us what's in the Bible...? :)

My point here is that the Bible has been spun to ridiculous levels by people through "formal interpretation"... "by experts"...."in the best interest of the church"....

If you take out social constructs of importance then the dinosaurs are just animals like any other animals..... Things just build from there. I think it's a fallacy to think that normal processes can't be accounted for by religion, even Christianity. It's the "interpretation" an the misguided "perceptions" that have caused issues. I don't want to get into an Evolution debate in an aliems thread but the reason evolution and church are so at odds is due to historical reasons and the majority of those are based on power and influence.

Which....

Brings me to my thought on aliems. I believe that aliens do exist and not only do exist but are pretty prevalent in the universe. I think that there are some that are in very early stages of evolution and some that are in very progressed stages of evolution. How they interact with others is based on the level of evolution and development within that "system." I think the more progressed the civilization the less likely it will interact with others as well.... and those would be the ones that would be coming down to see us, lol. Why would any alien civilization interact with us if they already have the capability of intergalactic travel?

However, I don't believe this issue revolves around our construct of religion and evolution. I think it contains both intertwined and both discretely separate...... but better informed.

[marianozz]

Originally posted by msan_msw
Why would any alien civilization interact with us if they already have the capability of intergalactic travel?



Why not? if they are that evolved, it would most probably because of their curiosity, the one that lead them to discover all the things that enabled to get them here in the 1st place... so... if theyre so curious, why wouldt they check us out? just for kicks....

[msan_msw]

Originally posted by marianozz




Why not? if they are that evolved, it would most probably because of their curiosity, the one that lead them to discover all the things that enabled to get them here in the 1st place... so... if theyre so curious, why wouldt they check us out? just for kicks....

My theory....

There is a lot of stuff in theory and in pop media about this. Take the "Prime Directive" as an example. IMHO, if a civilization is advanced enough to get here then the probably understand what would happen if they made themselves known...

- Religious groups go nuts. Religions around the world, confronted with this new knowledge, become irrational. People who are closely tied to religion are left with all kinds of "abandoned by God" feelings to "They are God" feelings.

- Discrimination. We can't even get along between races how do you think we'd get along with "grays."

- They have nothing to gain as far as technology. The one thing they DO have to gain is different levels of thought outside their own.... a kind of "I didn't think of that" way of looking at things. The best thing they could do would be to stay out of the way and let us keep developing and see what we come up with. (i.e. msan's "novelty theory").

- Ethics: See Prime Directive. They could do great harm to us just by introducing themselves. Religions, economics, social structures, political theory, on and on would instantly be thrown into chaos with the introduction of aliems :)

- Information: Our social structure is based heavily on information. What if they told us Evolution is true and proved it? What if they had cures for every disease and we overpopulated and war broke out left and right?

Anyway, IMHO any alien society that really cared about the Earth would not introduce themselves. I think it's safe to say we as humanity couldn't handle it. Just look at Richard Simmons. Imagine how he would react if he found out there were aliens, lol.

[Cop]

Originally posted by Slacker
there's stuff out there that can't be readily explained by religion, like the dinosaurs.

Easy explanation: at the time the bible was written no archeologists were around, no dinosaur bones uncovered. For the people of that time those animals never existed because there wasn't anything left of them they could take into account...

Hence another explanation why the bible is just a book filled with stories...

[Drakkenfyre]

Originally posted by msan_msw


Can't be explained by religion or can't be explained by the Bible? Can't be explained by the Bible or can't be explained by Christianity...? Can't be explained by Christianity or can't be explained by the people who tell us what's in the Bible...? :)

My point here is that the Bible has been spun to ridiculous levels by people through "formal interpretation"... "by experts"...."in the best interest of the church"....

What gets me is the people who claim the Bible has remained unchanged since it was written (or actually, spoken), it started out being a verbal record before it was commited to paper, so in that time variations and changes certainly occured, hell, you can line up 20 people in a circle, whisper something into someone's ear, and have them repeat it to the person next to them, and by the time it gets back to you it can be completely different, I have an aunt who doesn't believe the Earth is millions and millions of years old, and when you bring up Dinosaurs, she swears up and down that Dinosaurs walked the Earth with man, are mentioned in the Bible, and the reason they went extinct is because Noah didn't take them on the Ark (if you think I am kidding, I am not, she actually believes that),

-Drakk )))

[Swilo]

Who says other life in the universe would be carbon/hydrogen/oxygen based like it is on earth?
Taking that into consideration you just raised the probability of extraterrestrial life by about 100000%
To me it's just a matter of time before we start invading other planets, because when I watch an alien invasion movie I always think "Hey, WE'RE the ones who show that [territorial, fear] behaviour!"

[MonotremeMed]

Personally, given my athiest-hard-science-evolutionist bias, that there is most likely other life out there. As for the term "intelligent", tough to say...that would be a value judgement based on our own species standards.

Given the sheer # of stars, and the number of galaxies harboring said stars, and the mind-boggling possible # of planets potentially orbiting said stars, AND the fact that extra-terrestrial space debris (aka meteorites) have harbored microscopic structures analagous to amino acid chains, I'd say that the building blocks of carbon based life are out there somewhere swimming around in the primodial muck somewhere...if it isn't listening to whatever the alien equivalent of a CD player.

Just my $0.02

[Yellow Discharge]

I laugh at those who say that they can't or it's improbable due to other planets not being like Earth.

When life first formed on Earth, Earth wasn't the Earth it is now. The atmosphere back then would kill life now.

[DUKE HARDKNOCK]

Originally posted by Yellow Discharge
I laugh at those who say that they can't or it's improbable due to other planets not being like Earth.

When life first formed on Earth, Earth wasn't the Earth it is now. The atmosphere back then would kill life now.

Of course, the people who say it's impossible or at least highly improbable for life to exist elsewhere in the galaxy also tend to believe all life was created with a flick of the proverbial wrist by God when the earth was pretty much like it is today.

[Yellow Discharge]

The early atmosphere was like your fart. High in methane for one.

[incandescent]

Originally posted by Blidd


Of course, the people who say it's impossible or at least highly improbable for life to exist elsewhere in the galaxy also tend to believe all life was created with a flick of the proverbial wrist by God when the earth was pretty much like it is today.

conversely, its highly likely the people who do believe in life on other planets tend to believe in the cosmic chance of evolution and the big bang. Your opinion does not invalidate mine and vice versa. However, you should understand that everyone is entitled their opinion, and respecting that opinion is key to debate. I would recommend you look at both sides of the dime before you post such things in the future.

[babystinky]

If you believe in God and the Bible, then of course Aliens could exist, since other beings are mentioned in there, even hybrid races!

If you belive in Evolution, then of course the sheer fact of numbers would indicate that other life forms would be more then likely.

For those who are interested take a look at these paintings from Europe, look specifically at the one from a Serbian Monestary somewhere in Kosovo, the year is 1350.

http://www.qtm.net/~geibdan/mamary/

Tell me what that is??

Is that not a painting of a Spacecraft???

[DUKE HARDKNOCK]

Originally posted by incandescent
conversely, its highly likely the people who do believe in life on other planets tend to believe in the cosmic chance of evolution and the big bang. Your opinion does not invalidate mine and vice versa. However, you should understand that everyone is entitled their opinion, and respecting that opinion is key to debate. I would recommend you look at both sides of the dime before you post such things in the future.

You misinterpret me. What I meant was that people who are especially skeptical or even completely deny the possibility of (intelligent) life existing elsewhere in the galaxy have this opinion because of their religious beliefs that are in conflict with the hypothesis, and would therefore most likely disagree with the theory of evolution. Ergo, Yellow Discharge's comment would quite probably be lost on the target audience.

[DUKE HARDKNOCK]

Originally posted by babystinky
For those who are interested take a look at these paintings from Europe, look specifically at the one from a Serbian Monestary somewhere in Kosovo, the year is 1350.

http://www.qtm.net/~geibdan/mamary/

Tell me what that is??

Is that not a painting of a Spacecraft???

In all honesty, I doubt it.

[Ailuros]

If a alien civilisation would exist and would be as technologically advanced to reach our parts of the universe, it would make more sense that they'd observe, study us and the planet without exposing themselves and move on.

Think if you'd be able right now to visit another solar system and detect another civilisation, where it's population would still live in caves. How long would you observe them, before noting that your own civilisation has gone past that stage thousands of years ago?

I can't help but laugh about those abduction horror stories from aliens where they supposedly beam people up and stick funny stuff up their butts. Either it's true and those aliens are pretty weird, or some people have a way too deranged imagination heh :D

[Hydra]

Of course aliens exist, tourists are aliens.

But as for lifeforms from another planet, I beleive they exist, but I don't beleive they are stopping by, making some pretty patterns in fields, sucking the blood out of cows, kidnapping a redneck, perform degrading tests on him and then letting him/her go.

[sj_hurst]

Yeah, what he said. Also, I doubt that our planet has ever been visited by intelligent extraterrestrials. True, it's possible. But the only evidence is eyewitness testimony. Consider all of the various faiths, religions, and philosophies that people cling to. They can't all be true. People create false memories (unintentionally) or they lie (to garner fame, get money, vandalism, etc). Why do people write virus programs that wreck computers and networks? Many people believe in and do stupid things.

[BCRICH]

Maybe the universe is a buncnch of atoms inside an alien body :D

I do think there is other life out there. As far as we know the universe is infinite so why would earth be the only planet with life on it.

Heck right at this time in another galaxy aliens could be woundering the same thing.

Or maybe we are aliens and they are human. :confused: :eek:

[Yellow Discharge]

Why does everyone believe that as far as we know the universe in infinite? As far as we know it's not. If it was infinite we would all die!!

A universe that was infinite in size would mean that it contained infinite stars. An infinite amount of stars puts out an infinite amount of radiation. That would kill us.

[sj_hurst]

Originally posted by Yellow Discharge
Why does everyone believe that as far as we know the universe in infinite?

Not "everyone" believes that. Regardless, the concept that the universe is finite is determined solely by mathematics and is not based on how far we can see. Our best telescopes couldn't see the edge of the universe even if it were possible. It's not possible because the edge of the universe is receding away from us faster than the speed of light (or so they say). Yeah, scientists think that the universe is still expanding. I have trouble with this concept because I'm forced to wonder where the new space comes from. I've not seen a valid explanation or theory as that fully explains this. It's as though scientists assume that space is expanding without knowing how to define space or explain what it is exactly.

[BCRICH]

Well since no one knows if the universe ends or is infinite I would say that a theory saying it ends could be just as wrong as a theory saying it goes on for ever. It is a pointless to argue over it since there is no possible way to prove it does end or not but as far as we know so far no one has seen an end to it. How about that instead of infinite. I will just say there has been no physical proven end that way it is still possible that there may be an end. theory is fine but it is far from a correct answer a lot of the time.

[sj_hurst]

BCRICH,
That's close to what I was saying. Although, the scientists seem convinced that the universe is limited in size. It really doesn't matter anyway. Infinity exists in one form or another. Some trigger started the universe. And something else started that trigger. And so on and so on. I doubt if anyone will ever know the very beginning of it all, or even if there is such a thing.

[BCRICH]

I agree. Kind of like life is infinite, species may die or become extinct but life will always existin some form or another. Although that is a theory there is still no way to prove different until you have physical evidence. But for that arguement no one would ever know because everything would have to be dead. :D

[Yellow Discharge]

It doesn't end. There is no edge. It's like a game with warping at the ends. Think of the universe as inside a sphere. There is no edge.

[Hydra]

Originally posted by Yellow Discharge
It doesn't end. There is no edge. It's like a game with warping at the ends. Think of the universe as inside a sphere. There is no edge.

The universe is flat, moron http://www.modmans.com/hydra/slap.gif.


:D

[sj_hurst]

Originally posted by Yellow Discharge
It doesn't end. There is no edge. It's like a game with warping at the ends. Think of the universe as inside a sphere. There is no edge.

http://www.sciam.com/askexpert_question.cfm?articleID=000EF410-7C84-1C72-9EB7809EC588F2D7&pageNumber=1&catID=3

According to the above article, it sounds like the universe is limited in size but at the same time it has no edge. But clearly, if the universe is expanding, there has to be a boundary that matter and energy cannot cross. They say that nothing exists outside of the spherical universe. Space is thought to be something (they say that there's indirect evidence for this through the Casmir effect, etc). If so, then isn't the point where space (inside the universe) and nothing (outside the universe) meet, a boundary (that matter and energy can't cross)? Isn't the boundary an edge, even if science can't define it? Science can't define this edge because they have no means of detecting it or making accurate calculations about it. The above article even admitted that scientists would have to be able to define the geometries of this "edge" before they could say if it exists. It's simple. They're assuming that an edge doesn't exist because they have no evidence for or against the idea. That's why it's not a theory. Even theories require evidence, according to science.

[Yellow Discharge]

The universe it limited in size but has no edge. Gravity bends space. The universe is encloses.

If you get a rock and throw it in one direction it'll hit you in the back of the head. It still only travelled in a straight line though.

Same as the Earth has a limited surface area but it doesn't have an edge.

[EG]

children should not throw rocks in space.

[sj_hurst]

Originally posted by Yellow Discharge
If you get a rock and throw it in one direction it'll hit you in the back of the head. It still only travelled in a straight line though.

That's true for 3D surfaces, like the earth's surface (2 directional + 1 time). But the universe has 4 dimensions (3 directional + 1 time)...

[Yellow Discharge]

I know space has time because it's not space and it's not time it's space/time.

[sj_hurst]

Originally posted by Yellow Discharge
I know space has time because it's not space and it's not time it's space/time.

Space-time is a part of Einstein's theory of general relativity. His theories involving space-time prove that there are 4 known dimensions. There could be more, but there are only 4 dimensions that humans can perceive with their senses and minds. If scientists ever prove string theory, they may uncover the existence of several other dimensions.

Here's an interesting article that discusses how Einstein's theory of general relativity may have to be modified in the future.
http://www.sciam.com/article.cfm?articleID=00013319-39C7-1C74-9B81809EC588EF21&pageNumber=1&catID=2