Is Christianity Really Monotheistic?

[msan_msw]

Reading the Athiest threads got me thinking.... Maybe some of you more knowledgable Christians can shoot out some scripture to enlighten me on this.....

Christianity would seem to be the most monotheistic around (aside from the trinity debates) but....

If you accept God then you go to heaven and are governed by the rules of God. What happens if you don't accept the law of God? Well, you don't go the heaven, right? Your choice of not accepting God sends you to Hell. Who rules in Hell? Satan/Lucifer/DaDebil. DaDebil makes the rules in Hell.... There is an absence of God in Hell AFAIK.

So, it's your choice. You choose God and go to Heaven or "not" or deliberately choose Hell and you don't get both (right?).

SO.... It seems to me that there are two potential God entities to choose from.. God or Satan. So... is Christianity really monotheistic?

[DUKE HARDKNOCK]

Satan is supposedly the leader of the fallen angels, so I'm not sure if he constitutes a deity.

[FluxCapacitor]

Well according to Christian "mythology" for lack of a better term, Satan was an Angel who rebelled against God. God, who seems to advocate free will, let satan do what he wanted, and that was leave Heaven and go off on his own. Thus Satan "moved out" and formed his own little place called Hell. Like God didn't force Satan to stay in heaven because he couldn't stand God, we all get a choice at the time of our deaths: To go with God and worship him or to go off on our own, refusing to acknowledge God's greatness. If we choose to reject God then the only other place we can go is Hell, where the mayor of the town just so happens to be a ruthless evil being that tortures the souls who come to him.

Thus Satan is not a god, he is no greater than any of the countless other Angels in heaven. He is however more powerful than a human soul, and so takes pleasure in torturing the weak beings who choose to spend eternity with him.

[DUKE HARDKNOCK]

Originally posted by FluxCapacitor
Well according to Christian "mythology" for lack of a better term, Satan was an Angel who rebelled against God. God, who seems to advocate free will, let satan do what he wanted, and that was leave Heaven and go off on his own. Thus Satan "moved out" and formed his own little place called Hell. Like God didn't force Satan to stay in heaven because he couldn't stand God, we all get a choice at the time of our deaths: To go with God and worship him or to go off on our own, refusing to acknowledge God's greatness. If we choose to reject God then the only other place we can go is Hell, where the mayor of the town just so happens to be a ruthless evil being that tortures the souls who come to him.

Thus Satan is not a god, he is no greater than any of the countless other Angels in heaven. He is however more powerful than a human soul, and so takes pleasure in torturing the weak beings who choose to spend eternity with him.

...or so they say, anyway.

I somehow thought Satan was banished from heaven, though. Of course, that could be religious doctrine speaking rather than biblical mythology.

[sj_hurst]

Originally posted by Blidd


...or so they say, anyway.

I somehow thought Satan was banished from heaven, though. Of course, that could be religious doctrine speaking rather than biblical mythology.

It is said that God created him (as the angel Lucifer) to be the greatest angel (strength, beauty, etc). Actually, Satan wanted the other angels to follow/worship him as if he were the only god (the lust for absolute power???). About 1/3 of the angels in heaven (in the bible, it's compared to the # of stars) followed him, the rest did not. They were outnumbered, so they had to flee heaven. Whether they fought and were forced to leave, or left of their own free will is a matter of (hypothetical & religious) debate. The bible speaks of a great war in heaven between Satan's armies and God's armies, though it is supposed to occur in the last days (before Judgment). Also, it speaks of the lake of fire, which is the final resting place for Satan, his demons, and lost souls after Judgment Day. Hell is just a temporary holding tank. In the lake of fire, Satan will not rule. He will be tormented forever. Supposedly, Satan knows this. Angels being created perfect, God didn't grant them a possibility of reprieve (salvation). As the story goes, Satan is doomed and he knows it. Therefore it's his primary goal to steal as many souls as possible out of vengeance generated by his hatred of God.

I am by no means a biblical scholar. This was just my narrow interpretation of some things that I've picked up on this subject over the years.

[msan_msw]

Originally posted by Blidd
Satan is supposedly the leader of the fallen angels, so I'm not sure if he constitutes a deity.

Well, that still doesn't nail the coffin shut on this argument. The point of polytheism in a sense is greater and lesser gods e.g. Zues, Athena, etc....

This is a purely philosophical argument in a sense but I'd like to hear the scripture on it. Maybe I'll look it up.... I am playing in a sense "devil's advocate" but even that is a bit much for my sensibilities.

What makes a "larger than humanity" entity a god? Would it be the ability to create a soul? Sovergn reign over a "place" without the intervention of another diety (or can defend against another diety?) ?

Angels and Gods are subjective terms in the classic sense. The hierarcy of Heaven is an interesting debate in itself... and the term monotheistic is interesting in that as well. I always wanted to read some of the books on angels and see what they are all about. I've seen the stuff on the more common ones you hear such as Michael and Gabriel but not too much on others.

AFAIK Lucifer was one of God's favorites until they got in a big flame war and created and MROF. So.. it isn't as though I don't see what you're (or others) are saying about how Lucifer couldn't be a god and Christianity really is monotheistic....

I think most people say it is monotheistic because someone told them it was and not because they know why themselves or can proof it. Of course it would still be a fallacy based on that incorrect reasoning to say it "wasn't" still a monotheistic religion....

Just debatin' and thinkin' about some of the heavier stuff :D

[opus512]

IMO, anyway, Satan is not a god, he is not 'God', so he doesn't count as a 'god'. People can worship many things, not just diety's.

Out in the jungle a bengal tiger is greater then me, unless I have a big ass gun, heh, so 'greater then' is a relavent term ;)

I would have to ask my Dad for details, but basicaly, as it was said, Satan revolted against God with 1/3 of the angels, God banished them to Hell.

Satan surely knows his fate to come, whether he accepts that fate as inevitable or not I don't know. According to the Bible, all this was fated to be anyway. Satan does rule in Hell.

Interesting side note: a lot of polls have been taken, and a lot of peple that believe in God and angels, do not believe in the devil or demons.

[sj_hurst]

Originally posted by opus512
Out in the jungle a bengal tiger is greater then me, unless I have a big ass gun, heh, so 'greater then' is a relavent term ;)

It is prophesized (in the bible), that Michael (#1 angel since the fall of Lucifer) will single-handedly defeat Satan in the final battle in heaven before Judgment Day. If Satan was created greater (by God), how could he be beaten by a lesser entity (Michael)? Maybe Lucifer/Satan lost some strength after turning to the dark side. ;) Satan, in religious principle, brings pain and suffering. Fear, anger... these things are of the dark side. :P Well ok, maybe there is some truth in that. Fear and anger can bring physical strength (by stimulating adrenal activity). Oddly, those emotions usually detract from intellectual prowess and awareness. Perhaps the key to Michael's victory over Satan has to with a battle of wits (speaking hypothetically about religion).

BTW, the Lake of Fire is a separate place from Hell. According to scripture, Satan rules in Hell, but after Judgment Day, he'll suffer for eternity in the Lake of Fire. Read the book of Revelation in the bible for references to this.

[FluxCapacitor]

Pulled from dictionary.com:

God

A being conceived as the perfect, omnipotent, omniscient originator and ruler of the universe, the principal object of faith and worship in monotheistic religions.

The force, effect, or a manifestation or aspect of this being.

A being of supernatural powers or attributes, believed in and worshiped by a people, especially a male deity thought to control some part of nature or reality.

An image of a supernatural being; an idol.

One that is worshiped, idealized, or followed: Money was their god.

A very handsome man.

A powerful ruler or despot.


In Christianity Satan is not worshipped, and he is not seen as a ruling being. He has no power over the physical world, the only thing he can do is speak to us through our thoughts, and tempt us to do evil. However, he cannot control our thoughts, and it is ultimately our free will that determines our actions.

[msan_msw]

Originally posted by opus512
IMO, anyway, Satan is not a god, he is not 'God', so he doesn't count as a 'god'.

I would have to ask my Dad for details,

That's the thing... we just accept it. What details and specifics can we share?

Originally posted by sj_hurst


It is prophesized (in the bible), that Michael......

Do you have a ref? Is that in Revelations?

[msan_msw]

Originally posted by FluxCapacitor


In Christianity Satan is not worshipped, and he is not seen as a ruling being. He has no power over the physical world, the only thing he can do is speak to us through our thoughts, and tempt us to do evil. However, he cannot control our thoughts, and it is ultimately our free will that determines our actions.

lol, so the dictionary defines God? That's interesting.....

Satan not worshipped? Totally not true. I don't think I would be wrong to say that there are Satan worshippers out there... and there wouldn't be Satan worshippers without Christianity or texts/stories/etc., based on Christianity. Christians (obviously) don't worship Satan but because of Christianity there is Satan worship...

No power over the physical world?.... Since Satan is "the ruler of this world" I had to look some of that up. I found this read interesting:

http://www.rome4christ.com/biblstud/btb04.html

Anyway, interesting stuff...

[White_Rooque]

Lucifer was God's most powerful angel,but when he got bold enough to think he was God's equal he got cast down to hell,so remember that the next time you challenge your boss

[incandescent]

satan is not a god because he does not have the omnicsent power or omnipresent capabilities. Satan, and his "demons," since the ressurection of Christ, are only able to tempt you, not "posses." All, IMHO.

[Harddave]

I don't know if this keeps with the topic, but opinions are encouraged.

From what I was taught by my peers (not so much my parents, but they really didn't explain anything to me), there is no God without Satan, no Heaven without Hell.

I don't agree with this. This is so immature. I don't belive that being that everyting (science for example) is so complicated that the theory that justifies your life would be so elementary.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Maybe this did happen. No one can prove it didn't. I also lend possiblilty to a"multiple dimension" theory, albeit not what Steven Hawking defined; I don't agree with his. It's unexplainable, and in one of his books, he cannot explain it either (The Universe in a Nutshell). I lend credence towards the harmonic theory of nature. It is by far the most natural theory available without showing a sign of artificiality based on the current LAWS of science (they are always increasing as our knowledge increases, our own ignorance is the limiting factor). While this is far outside the range of this discussion, I will skip the details at the moment.

The God vs. Satan argument is just plain goofy. While it may have happened, so what? Let me ask you something. According to the Bible, if you don't accept Jesus as your savior, you go to Hell. So, if your child died at 8 months due to an illness, is your child going to hell? Maybe he/she hadn't been baptized yet. EXPLAIN THAT.
How about an African man who has never heard the word of God in his 40 years of jungle existence and he dies. Is he going to hell? If not where is his soul/energy going? There is a law called the Law of Conservation of Energy. If you don't belive in a soul, you've got a lot of explaining to do in my book. Explain you're own metacognition.

In my opinion, we've been misled by the Bible, or more specifically what the churches have wanted us to beleive of it. I'm not saying it's not worth reading, because it is, but people are basing their lives on mostly a fictional work. Whenever I see parting waters and burning bushes from a supernatural power, I may change my stance. God has never outright spoken to me, but that's not to say some force or another hasn't been looking after me or leading me in a particular direction. My favorite is the Old Testament. It's the reason I even believe and contains most of my justifications.

Althought my argument is fairly vague, I have reasons to back it up. It would just take me an entire book to do it. I think for myself based on sound conclusions and personal experience. I am not a sheep, nor do I desire to be one. However, religion has been around since the dawn of time, and I give won't pass this off as "foolish beliefs."

[sj_hurst]

Originally posted by msan_msw
Do you have a ref? Is that in Revelations?

Yes, but I wasn't entirely correct.

Michael and his armies defeat Satan and his armies (in heaven). Satan and his armies are then hurled to earth (not yet defeated once and for all). Revelation 12:7

According to Revelation, the end days seem to be a long drawn out series of wars, with 1000 years of peace in between the wars. Satan's final punishment occurs long after Michael and his armies defeat him. Revelation 20:10 speaks of the final damnation of Satan. Note: I couldn't find any reference that indicates if God has any direct involvement with Satan's punishment. Indeed, Revelation 20:1-3 says that an angel from heaven locks Satan up for the 1000 years of peace (more commonly known as the Millennium). As far as Satan's final demise, it says that he is thrown into the lake of fire to be forever tormented. It doesn't say who or what throws him into the "lake of fire." Revelation 20:10

[msan_msw]

Thanks :)

I actually thought about this creating this thread after reading this from the other:

Originally posted by sj_hurst


That's certainly true. However, in monotheistic religions, worshipping more than one god is considered a sin. The Old Testament focuses primarily on the importance of having one God.

[EG]

last time I went to a church.. I didnt see them worshiping Satan

I dont think Satanists count as chrisitans

[sj_hurst]

IMO, Eghads has a valid point. Even the Satanists are monotheistic in a sense because they worship only one entity. But then again, is Satan a deity? Personally, I don't think so. I don't think that being classified as a god is determined by having worshippers. The Egyptian Pharaohs were thought to be gods by their people and their people worshiped them. Based on Revelation, I guess God can be defined as the Alpha and the Omega; the beginning and the end; the creator and the judge.

[DUKE HARDKNOCK]

Originally posted by msan_msw
Well, that still doesn't nail the coffin shut on this argument. The point of polytheism in a sense is greater and lesser gods e.g. Zues, Athena, etc....

This is a purely philosophical argument in a sense but I'd like to hear the scripture on it. Maybe I'll look it up.... I am playing in a sense "devil's advocate" but even that is a bit much for my sensibilities.

What makes a "larger than humanity" entity a god? Would it be the ability to create a soul? Sovergn reign over a "place" without the intervention of another diety (or can defend against another diety?) ?

Angels and Gods are subjective terms in the classic sense. The hierarcy of Heaven is an interesting debate in itself... and the term monotheistic is interesting in that as well. I always wanted to read some of the books on angels and see what they are all about. I've seen the stuff on the more common ones you hear such as Michael and Gabriel but not too much on others.

AFAIK Lucifer was one of God's favorites until they got in a big flame war and created and MROF. So.. it isn't as though I don't see what you're (or others) are saying about how Lucifer couldn't be a god and Christianity really is monotheistic....

I think most people say it is monotheistic because someone told them it was and not because they know why themselves or can proof it. Of course it would still be a fallacy based on that incorrect reasoning to say it "wasn't" still a monotheistic religion....

Just debatin' and thinkin' about some of the heavier stuff :D

Well, Satan could possibly be considered the God of Evil as he's the personification of evilness in classic Christian lore, and as such would fit the description of an anthropomorphic god.

However, since he's actually God's creation rather than one of the "founding" deities, perhaps it would be more accurate to think of him as a demigod. Whatever the case, Christianity has to be monotheistic since it demands devotion to only God himself. Polytheistic religions generally do not require that one follows only one god or goddess.

[sj_hurst]

Originally posted by Harddave
The God vs. Satan argument is just plain goofy. While it may have happened, so what? Let me ask you something. According to the Bible, if you don't accept Jesus as your savior, you go to Hell. So, if your child died at 8 months due to an illness, is your child going to hell? Maybe he/she hadn't been baptized yet. EXPLAIN THAT.
How about an African man who has never heard the word of God in his 40 years of jungle existence and he dies. Is he going to hell? If not where is his soul/energy going? There is a law called the Law of Conservation of Energy. If you don't belive in a soul, you've got a lot of explaining to do in my book. Explain you're own metacognition.

"because law (God's Law) brings wrath. And where there is no law there is no transgression." Romans 4:15

"for before the law was given, sin was in the world. But sin is not taken into account when there is no law." Romans 5:13

I interpret this to mean.... When the law is known and disobeyed by someone, only then will "sin" be held against that someone. However, the bible also clearly indicates that eternal life will only be granted to those who have faith in Jesus Christ. This leads us to the conclusion that the bible is saying that those who have never heard "the word of God" will not go to heaven or hell. Perhaps they cease to exist or perhaps they go to a different place where their ultimate fate has yet to be determined (a spirit world as describe in Msan's previous link, note: the Catholic's call that place Purgatory).

[Sir_Gallahad]

In the name of the father, the son, and the holy spirit.

My answer.



Yes...I realize they're kinda the same thing...but do you not praise them seperately?

[Harddave]

Ah, very good! Someone who is thinking!

I would like to discuss a couple of things before I get to the point. One argument is "do animals have a soul?" No human can prove this. We like to put ourselves above them and think that they are too inferior to have a soul. This is premature. I sit an look at my fish and each one of them has a different personality. Some are skiddish, some like to show themselves, and some are very "personable." It makes me wonder if they have a little voice inside their head like we do.

We call this "voice" consciousness or a soul. If we didn't have it, our bodies would operate in the normal fashion, but like mindless machines. What if you could increase this intelligence? Is a soul the "operating system" of the body? What if you no longer need a body to operate? This lends suggestion to various levels of consciousness. For example: God, the all knowing, the supreme being, the highest level of consciousness attainable. Only a being of that achievement and intelligence could reside over the rest.

You mention purgatory. I think this idea is foolish as well. So what you would be saying is you either: a) go to heaven, b) go to hell, or c) get put in queue (ie., purgatory). Wtf? I know I just didn't live for 80-90-100 years to get put in a holding tank.

Now, let's take for example the multidimensional theory, but only there are levels rather than "possible outcomes" as Stephen Hawking would describe to you (he does not believe in God btw). The harmonic theory I referred to consists of 12 then a return, similar to that on a piano. It's interesting that we can create every possible note using this scale. Of course, there are also "octaves," but they also consist of the same notes as well. What if dimensions funtion on a similar basis? Each octave would represent a dimension, while the individual notes would represent levels or degrees of advancement within. That would provide for the following:

Human life, and any other form of life that requires a body. This can take up multiple levels of consciousness (animals, humans, etc.) in one dimension, possibly encompassing 3 as we now know it.

Hell (a general, representative term). One of the dimensions where impurity and evil consciousness reside.

Heaven (another general term): Possibly where the uppermost dimensions of consciouness reside, such as those pure and learned in thought such as Jesus.

Angels: Those consciounesses well on their way to the uppermost reaches.

Various other forms that didn't quite develop the way they should, or are just "in the process."


When God gave us "free will," maybe this is what he meant. We have the choice to become pure, become evil, and to not become or learn anything at all. If we don't learn anything, maybe we are given another chance. Back to the fish: I have several fish of the same species. Some fight, and some have wonderful dispositions; even dogs display the same behavior. Maybe they have free will as well. In other words, we would have the choice to evolve and move on to the next level. What that level holds in store for us is up to us. There are many questions left unanswered, but there is in any religion. All we have is sripture to guide us along.

I find it amazing the amount of athiests in these forums. If the people here were to serve as an equal, representative sample of the population, it would be frightening the number of those who have really lost their faith, or who have never even found it. This in my opinion is a failure in the present "teachings" of religion. IF the people were lied to and misled by the early church teachings, only time will erode the lies and deceit. I would say it's about high time that the truth be sought after. Case in point: don't forget to donate. You won't go to heaven unless you do... :rolleyes:

[sj_hurst]

Originally posted by Sir_Gallahad
In the name of the father, the son, and the holy spirit.

My answer.



Yes...I realize they're kinda the same thing...but do you not praise them seperately?

You're speaking of the Trinity and my answer is no (just my opinion of course). I believe that they are not supposed to be worshipped separately. IMO, only God is suppose to be worshipped (according to the bible). The other two elements (Jesus and the Holy Spirit) play important roles in the Christian faith. However, an explanation would require a full-fledged sermon. Giving a sermon here could possibly offend someone. However, I would be more than happy to provide a brief (sermon-like) message if it is acceptable to the people who moderate this forum.

[sj_hurst]

Originally posted by Harddave
You mention purgatory. I think this idea is foolish as well. So what you would be saying is you either: a) go to heaven, b) go to hell, or c) get put in queue (ie., purgatory). Wtf? I know I just didn't live for 80-90-100 years to get put in a holding tank.

I do not practice the Catholic faith. I was merely speaking in terms of pure conjecture when I mentioned a "spirit world" and "Purgatory." Personally, I do not see the point of a "holding tank" either. It's seems that this reality (our current state of existence) should have some special purpose (independent of a "spirit world") if a religion is to be valid. Otherwise, this reality/existence would be virtually meaningless (as you've implied). Regardless, I find it difficult to accept the notion of an uninformed, unenlightened person going to any sort of hell. Why would God use the same measuring stick to judge those who have never been given an opportunity for salvation? Certainly, ignorance shouldn't be mistaken for an intentional motive (like the rejection of God's forgiveness). I believe that the bible concurs with this sentiment. Rejection of God's gift is not the same thing as not knowing about God's gift. There is a distinction between the two. And quite possibly, "not knowing" leads to a different outcome for those non-believers (who are ignorant of God's plan for salvation). Like I said, the possibility of an alternate outcome is a matter of conjecture.

[msan_msw]

I think that the concept of Trinity has split some denominations but afaik Christianity considers the three as one. Some consider the Holy Ghost as what guides mankind until the return of Jesus. There is no clear answer unless you speak from one of the various denominations then the answer is based on that denomination's beliefs.

Purgatory would be a great thing if it existed. I'm not sure it has a foundation in fact though (you can read the debate by throwing the question into Google). Considering that the vast majority of people don't follow the guidelines of the church(s) it would be good to have a place from which to rectify the 'issues' that were needed in order to enter Heaven.

I know I just didn't live for 80-90-100 years to get put in a holding tank.

So you would rather go to Hell than have a chance at going to Heaven? Are you so sure of your "salvation"?

Personally, I do not see the point of a "holding tank" either.

The point is pretty basic and common sense... at least for me. Wouldn't it be better to work off your sins than be eternally damned? I guess some people like the "all or nothing" way of things... but considering the calculations that show that the vast majority of people are going to Hell I think that a middle ground "purgatio" would be a good thing. At least that way you have a chance....

An interesting read:

http://www.globalserve.net/~bumblebee/ecclesia/purgator.htm

[Sir_Gallahad]

Originally posted by msan_msw
I think that the concept of Trinity has split some denominations but afaik Christianity considers the three as one. Some consider the Holy Ghost as what guides mankind until the return of Jesus. There is no clear answer unless you speak from one of the various denominations then the answer is based on that denomination's beliefs.

Purgatory would be a great thing if it existed. I'm not sure it has a foundation in fact though (you can read the debate by throwing the question into Google). Considering that the vast majority of people don't follow the guidelines of the church(s) it would be good to have a place from which to rectify the 'issues' that were needed in order to enter Heaven.

I know I just didn't live for 80-90-100 years to get put in a holding tank.

So you would rather go to Hell than have a chance at going to Heaven? Are you so sure of your "salvation"?

Personally, I do not see the point of a "holding tank" either.

The point is pretty basic and common sense... at least for me. Wouldn't it be better to work off your sins than be eternally damned? I guess some people like the "all or nothing" way of things... but considering the calculations that show that the vast majority of people are going to Hell I think that a middle ground "purgatio" would be a good thing. At least that way you have a chance....

An interesting read:

http://www.globalserve.net/~bumblebee/ecclesia/purgator.htm

And this, my friends, is why hell (if it exists) is exothermic. :D

[ItsNoot]

Originally posted by msan_msw
Purgatory would be a great thing if it existed. I'm not sure it has a foundation in fact though (you can read the debate by throwing the question into Google). Considering that the vast majority of people don't follow the guidelines of the church(s) it would be good to have a place from which to rectify the 'issues' that were needed in order to enter Heaven.

I know I just didn't live for 80-90-100 years to get put in a holding tank.

So you would rather go to Hell than have a chance at going to Heaven? Are you so sure of your "salvation"?

Personally, I do not see the point of a "holding tank" either.

LOL. It does seem silly to me. I'll live my whole life being a dick wad then in purgatory just change my tune real fast. "Heeeyyyy, St Pete! What's up with you my man? Can you hook a brother up?" LMAO

I heard an interesting theory recently that purgatory does exist though, just not in the way people tend to think of it. Basically the thought went that NO ONE has gotten out of purgatory yet. Everyone who has died is still sitting in their waiting for the end times, when the dead shall walk the earth.....for judgement day. I don't have all the details unfortunately, but you get the drift.

[DUKE HARDKNOCK]

Originally posted by ItsNoot
LOL. It does seem silly to me. I'll live my whole life being a dick wad then in purgatory just change my tune real fast. "Heeeyyyy, St Pete! What's up with you my man? Can you hook a brother up?" LMAO

I heard an interesting theory recently that purgatory does exist though, just not in the way people tend to think of it. Basically the thought went that NO ONE has gotten out of purgatory yet. Everyone who has died is still sitting in their waiting for the end times, when the dead shall walk the earth.....for judgement day. I don't have all the details unfortunately, but you get the drift.

Man, can't I just die and decay? I don't even want to have an afterlife.

[msan_msw]

Originally posted by ItsNoot


LOL. It does seem silly to me. I'll live my whole life being a dick wad then in purgatory just change my tune real fast. "Heeeyyyy, St Pete! What's up with you my man? Can you hook a brother up?" LMAO


lol, my definition of Purgitory comes from Dante and Catechism and wouldn't really include what you describe, hehe. :D

[EG]

Originally posted by msan_msw


lol, my definition of Purgitory comes from Dante and Catechism and wouldn't really include what you describe, hehe. :D

Purgitory....isnt that like an enema or something ?

[DUKE HARDKNOCK]

Originally posted by EGhadsGhost
Purgitory....isnt that like an enema or something ?

Something like that, except not as fun to be subject to nor as amusing to onlookers.

[Coop 1.04]

Originally posted by msan_msw
If you accept God then you go to heaven and are governed by the rules of God. What happens if you don't accept the law of God? Well, you don't go the heaven, right? Your choice of not accepting God sends you to Hell. Who rules in Hell? Satan/Lucifer/DaDebil. DaDebil makes the rules in Hell.... There is an absence of God in Hell AFAIK.


Actually during the final judgement, all those who disobeyed God will be thrown into the lake of fire and that includes Satan . Also Satan rules Hell because God allows him. God's presence has no limitations.



SO.... It seems to me that there are two potential God entities to choose from.. God or Satan. So... is Christianity really monotheistic?

Satan and God are not equals. Satan can't do anything without God's permission. Worshiping Satan is like worshipping Elvis. You can do it but it won't get you anywhere.

[Coop 1.04]

Originally posted by EGhadsGhost


Purgitory....isnt that like an enema or something ?

Purgitory is like New Jersey except it's cleaner :D

[Harddave]

Originally posted by Harddave
Now, let's take for example the multidimensional theory, but only there are levels rather than "possible outcomes" as Stephen Hawking would describe to you (he does not believe in God btw). The harmonic theory I referred to consists of 12 then a return, similar to that on a piano. It's interesting that we can create every possible note using this scale. Of course, there are also "octaves," but they also consist of the same notes as well. What if dimensions funtion on a similar basis? Each octave would represent a dimension, while the individual notes would represent levels or degrees of advancement within. That would provide for the following:

Human life, and any other form of life that requires a body. This can take up multiple levels of consciousness (animals, humans, etc.) in one dimension, possibly encompassing 3 as we now know it.

Hell (a general, representative term). One of the dimensions where impurity and evil consciousness reside.

Heaven (another general term): Possibly where the uppermost dimensions of consciouness reside, such as those pure and learned in thought such as Jesus.

Angels: Those consciounesses well on their way to the uppermost reaches.

Various other forms that didn't quite develop the way they should, or are just "in the process."


When God gave us "free will," maybe this is what he meant. We have the choice to become pure, become evil, and to not become or learn anything at all. If we don't learn anything, maybe we are given another chance.

To further my discussion, I'm not sure I made it clear that these dimensions would actually represent the notion of purgatory. This would assume that hell is amongst them, but this is where the bad souls go. It can also be assumed that there would be different levels of evil within hell, satan being the prime evil. You would think that your beliefs and actions here on earth would base your worthiness of going to heaven. However, another otherworldly place could be percieved as heaven as well. I would guess that true heaven would be the existence along side of God's. I would also guess that you would have to be pretty darn holy to get there. If man is a sinner, then he does not deserve to live in "God's land," but that does not mean he does not get the chance to become better (once again - free will), hence "purgatory" or a dimension of being "better" (possibly "worse", but maybe not deserving of hell) than earth. As for the second coming, it could very well be possible that the beings that reside in purgatory could be redeemed.

Backing up a bit, the "hell dimension" would also influence the dimensions below it, such as ours, and just as the highest dimension would have control over all of them. This could be the justification of the Bible. The Bible would serve as God's little handbook for achieving salvation, albeit still written by man (inspired by God). The entire point of it is to steer you clear of evil and to further your soul's existence <insert quote here> with the proper methods of doing so. Strange how we find it so hard to do; we are all sinners without being given the chance to not be (possibly due to "evil" influences). However, as it's said in the good book, we are given the chance for salvation/redemption.

[msan_msw]

Originally posted by EGhadsGhost


Purgitory....isnt that like an enema or something ?

Hehehe... prolly a lot like having kidney stones with all that rock pushing I've read about, hehe.



Originally posted by Coop 1.04


Satan and God are not equals. Satan can't do anything without God's permission. Worshiping Satan is like worshipping Elvis. You can do it but it won't get you anywhere.

I don't know if I agree with that. Using that line of though then God would be responsible for a lot of evil that we see around us. I'm thinking that Satan does things without God's permission :)

[Slacker]

I think the fact that Satan was created is evidence enough. :)

Also, like someone mentioned, unlike God, Satan can only be in one place at a time. Read the story of Job for more information on that. I'm actually talking about Satan and the Satanic church this Sunday (I teach high school age Sunday school for those who don't know), so I'll post some more info soon.

[Sir_Gallahad]

:eek: Slacker joined in..../cues end of world

[msan_msw]

Originally posted by Sir_Gallahad
:eek: Slacker joined in..../cues end of world

I used the extre' stinky bait this time :D (j/k hehe).

Yeah Slackman, I'd be interested in hearing your points on this.

The question I raised really has some concrete fact around it based on what the Bible has to say and not personal opinion. Normally I take personal opinion more seriously because that's a "reality" in itself... but when discussing "fact" sometimes it's better to use "fact." But I don't know the "fact" so I ask....

As I said earlier, a lot of folks have belief and when tested they can't "proof" their belief other than "someone told me that." Eh.. Normally that's fine. Some might say though that DaDebil can use that to trick ya or confuse ya into doing or thinking something that isn't in your best interest.

So... I ask... What are the properties of Satan and the boundaries that contain his actions. Why does God allow for the existance of Satan if Satan is so bad?

Sub questions:

- Is Satan independent of God's law and independent from God?
- If God does have governance of Satan should God be accountable for Satan's actions?


It's looking like the angel stuff will be a topic I have to research on my own as it has a ton of info and stuff...... Interesting note... I was named after "Michael" so I'll dig up some info on him. I don't know if being named after Michael is ~correct because he seems more of a combat angel so maybe I'll rename myself one of the other deva types, lol.

I guess this is kind of like a spiritual "Ask a Slacker" :D

[ItsNoot]

- Is Satan independent of God's law and independent from God?

Slacker hinted at it. Satan was created by God just like all the other angels. Nothing is independant of God's law. However, we have been granted the free will to remove ourselves from God's grace, which is exactly what Satan has done.

- If God does have governance of Satan should God be accountable for Satan's actions?

This is going back to the free will I mentioned. God gave humans and angels both free will. Is God responsible for the actions of men? Many people think so, and some even throw away their faith because of it. A fine "thanks" for the free will we were all given, lol.

I've heard many people talk about why God allows certain things to happen. I don't know if any are completely correct though... So many of the "out there" theories I've heard I can relate to this conversation, hehe. Here we go...

It is written that God's days are like a thousand to man, right? In that sense God's creation week may have taken place over an extrodinary amount of time. (4.5 billion years?, lol) The creation story and the evolution theory pretty much follow parallel courses of development. Not exact, but really dog gone close.

Now then, God did what on the sixth day? He created man. By all our calculations, man has been on this rock for a very short period of time, right? Compared to the rest of the geological history anyway. So man just got here, God's sixth day just ended, where does that leave us? The seventh day. And we all know what God is doing on the seventh day: resting. So in a sense, the creation story hasn't really ended. Were still sitting in the seventh day and God's still catching his breath, LOL :D

I don't know if any of that holds a grain of salt according to biblical fact, but it certainly made for a great conversation when I had it, and it's great mind candy now :) It makes sense to me, but I have a tendancy to not explain things well enough. The point I was driving at was both this theory and others I've heard made mention that God is resting. Satan is having his way with the world, he's doing his best to get a hold of it, but in the end he will end up just one more cursed soul who removed himself from God's grace.

[Coop 1.04]

Nothing God does is evil :D. Just because Satan has been given free reign to do evil on the world, doesn't mean he isn't held accountable (he does get thrown into the lake of fire). Satan CHOOSES to do evil. He can if he wanted to repent and once again join God