View Full Version : A new line of thought on Iraq
So, why do I support the war? One reason that persuades me (and one that no one else has mentioned) is that toppling Saddam is the best way toward what should be our main goal: a bourgeois Middle East. We don't really expect the Arab and Muslim regimes of the region to be democratic. We don't really expect a Jeffersonian blossoming in the Euphrates Valley. And we don't really anticipate an East Asia style boom. But what we hope for is countries with reasonably stable governments that listen to their citizens, encourage capitalism, and offer enough opportunities to keep young men busy. Basically we'd be satisfied with a region of Jordans or Qatars.
http://slate.msn.com/?id=2071670&&entry=2071900
Read the article... I think that this is one of the biggest reasons we have terrorism. No opportunities for the young. I have traveled a few places in the world and have found that the average joe is about the same everywhere. With the same wants and needs basically.
1. Have an opportunity to excel personally and economically
2. make a comfortable living
3. provide for his/her family
4. provide a better future for their kids
The current regimes in most Arab countries fail to do this. They prefer to maintain the status quo.
Anayway I thought it was a insight into our problem...
what do you think?
basically like to keep this topic on the above subject...minus the party line politics and any discussion of WMD, ect.
sj_hurst
10-07-02, 10:18 AM
So you're saying that poverty breeds crime. I don't think so. I think it has more to do with cultural and religious beliefs. My mother's family was dirt poor and she had 11 siblings. None of them ever caused physical harm to another human being. If that doesn't convince you, look at Saddam. He's a multi-billionaire and a murderous thug.
msan_msw
10-07-02, 10:23 AM
Originally posted by EGhadsGhost
all read and no talk?
Well, I think it's kind of nutty :) It sound a lot like a grandpa though.. "If those young whipper-snappers just had something to do we wouldn't be in this mess! Back in my day we had to work for a living and *if* we had extra time we *might* make a weapon of mass destruction. Anyone seen my teeth?" :D
Why are there no opportunities for the young over there? First it begs the question if this is in anyway true. Do the young over there have nothing to do? The same could be said right here in the states.
It also makes it seem like there's a big ol' group of folks over there just ready to be terrorist, cause trouble, and play their rock and roll too loud. The vast majority of people, even in Iraq, Iran, Syria, Israel, etc., .... are just normal folks. The news plays it up a lot. Of a million people a thousand may be active in something we would prefer they aren't active in. Same here with the white seperatist, constitutionalist, etc.
It just seems to me the Slate poster is just too simplistic and has some kind of illusion floating around in his head that just wouldn't be and isn't true in reality.
A side note, and something I saw on the tube last night. The vast majority of folks in the Middle East like our political process and our values (this was a poll) but hate us because of the oppression we've put on that part of the world for 100 years or more. Maybe we should look at how we treat them before making up stuff like "the yungin's just need more work!"
:)
Originally posted by sj_hurst
So you're saying that poverty breeds crime. I don't think so. I think it has more to do with cultural and religious beliefs. My mother's family was dirt poor and she had 11 siblings. None of them ever caused physical harm to another human being. If that doesn't convince you, look at Saddam. He's a multi-billionaire and a murderous thug.
we are not talking about crime..
you mention religious beliefs..interesting
so what do all of these young impoverished middle east folks do...
They go to some religious schools that offer them money and meals... where the main discourse is America is evil and should be destroyed
Or they associate with terrorist groups who offer them money and food .. and what do they preach..you guessed it America is evil
Now suppose we take those same young people give them a chance at an education in a university. Give them a chance at a vocational school and a good job afterwards.
In order for that to work you need economi growth which fosters economic opportunities.
What does a lot of money go in the midle east
in the regimes pockets
terrorist organizations
religious schools that teach certain doctrines
military
not much left over for economic growth and education is there?
sj_hurst
10-07-02, 10:37 AM
Some say that genetics plays a role in violent behaviors. But personally, I wouldn't say that about a specific race because that would carry some racial connotations with it.
PaleDuke
10-07-02, 10:41 AM
Originally posted by EGhadsGhost
we are not talking about crime..
you mention religious beliefs..interesting
so what do all of these young impoverished middle east folks do...
They go to some religious schools that offer them money and meals... where the main discourse is America is evil and should be destroyed
Or they associate with terrorist groups who offer them money and food .. and what do they preach..you guessed it America is evil
Now suppose we take those same young people give them a chance at an education in a university. Give them a chance at a vocational school and a good job afterwards.
In order for that to work you need economi growth which fosters economic opportunities.
What does a lot of money go in the midle east
in the regimes pockets
terrorist organizations
religious schools that teach certain doctrines
military
not much left over for economic growth and education is there?
Yup...that's been my read on this all along too.
It all boils down to scapegoating the Palestinian/Israeli conflict and The Great Satan's involvement by the imams, sanctioned with a wink by the state. A classic redirection of blame.
Will sending in our troops help or fulfill the prophecy ?
Originally posted by msan_msw
Well, I think it's kind of nutty :) It sound a lot like a grandpa though.. "If those young whipper-snappers just had something to do we wouldn't be in this mess! Back in my day we had to work for a living and *if* we had extra time we *might* make a weapon of mass destruction. Anyone seen my teeth?" :D
Why are there no opportunities for the young over there? First it begs the question if this is in anyway true. Do the young over there have nothing to do? The same could be said right here in the states.
It also makes it seem like there's a big ol' group of folks over there just ready to be terrorist, cause trouble, and play their rock and roll too loud. The vast majority of people, even in Iraq, Iran, Syria, Israel, etc., .... are just normal folks. The news plays it up a lot. Of a million people a thousand may be active in something we would prefer they aren't active in. Same here with the white seperatist, constitutionalist, etc.
It just seems to me the Slate poster is just too simplistic and has some kind of illusion floating around in his head that just wouldn't be and isn't true in reality.
A side note, and something I saw on the tube last night. The vast majority of folks in the Middle East like our political process and our values (this was a poll) but hate us because of the oppression we've put on that part of the world for 100 years or more. Maybe we should look at how we treat them before making up stuff like "the yungin's just need more work!"
:)
They want our values and political process.....how do they achieve that?
our mistreatment or the current regimes mistreatment?
exactly how are we oppressing muslims in that region? Or is the current regime oppressing them?
We are in Bosnia right now protecting muslims. We protected muslims during the Gulf War. Did we mistreat any of the Muslims in these places. Where is this mistreatment they talk about? Do we not send money and humanitarian aid to muslim countries.
Is it a case of that they percieve we mistreat them or an actual case of mistreatment?
where does this perception come from?
If you were a regime in power in an Arab Country lining your pockets and getting wealthy an powerful, wouldnt you want to make a distraction from yourself and to keep the status quo.
You an myself have had the benefit of higher education. It has taught us to question things and to formulate answers.. If the millions of underprivileged have this same opprtunity in the Middle East I think they would start asking the religious mullahs and the regimes in power some serious questions...
We are truly not the Muslims enemies.... I would make that case that the current regimes in power seek to equate us with evil to make the masses think so. After all we have no resorces in those countries to dispute the propoganda as things are tightly controlled by the regimes.
This same line of propoganda also are meant for the US Citizen. They want to divide us and make us ineffective to facilitate change in that region.
msan_msw
10-07-02, 10:48 AM
[about the first reply]
EG, I think you have a distorted view of the youth and people over there. C'mon, I know you've been there and you have to know that isn't true.......
sj_hurst
10-07-02, 10:50 AM
Originally posted by PaleDuke
Will sending in our troops help or fulfill the prophecy ?
Islam's prophecy? No. If you believe Msan's theory, we're strictly after Saddam's oil. Killing Iraqi civilains is the last thing our military/government wants to be involved in because that would erode public support for the war (in the U.S.). In fact, they'll preach that they're liberating the Iraqi people. Although, the Iraqi people will probably believe them (for good reason). Afterall, Saddam is a terrorist dictator and he's not very popular in Iraq. Most Iraqi people only obey him for fear of losing their lives.
Originally posted by PaleDuke
Yup...that's been my read on this all along too.
It all boils down to scapegoating the Palestinian/Israeli conflict and The Great Satan's involvement by the imams, sanctioned with a wink by the state. A classic redirection of blame.
Will sending in our troops help or fulfill the prophecy ?
Thank you....
Dont know the answer to that one.....
But I do know the longer we set back and do nothing the worse it is going to get. Things will possibly come down the pike to make 9/11 look small...
Originally posted by msan_msw
[about the first reply]
EG, I think you have a distorted view of the youth and people over there. C'mon, I know you've been there and you have to know that isn't true.......
a distorted view?
look to our inner cities, what is one of the biggest problems?
gangs......
why do young people join gangs?
do the gang leaders wnat their gang mebers to be enlightened and educated to have economic opportunities? Do they fill the gang mebers head up with facts that beneficial to the gang leaders well being so that he stays in power and keeps his pockets lined?
why do young people join terrorists groups?
Instead of the Bloods and Crips its Hamas, Intfaddah, ect....
what are solutions to gangs?
we are fighting the same war on the homefront in our inner cities .
The same phenomenon is occuring in the Middle east with the help of religious mullahs and terrorist groups.
Like I said I have been a few places. I like to talk to and observe people. People pretty much have the same desire as people the world over. minus the ethnic and national differences.
msan_msw
10-07-02, 11:00 AM
exactly how are we oppressing muslims in that region?
Look at the history. We divided their land without consideration of their history and ethnic and cultural boundaries. Look at Palestine, Iraq (3 nations in one), and look how we've typically treated muslims and others over there. We abandon them (like we did to the Kurds after the Gulf War), we use them (like we did in the Iran/Iraq war), we bomb them (obvious), and we make demands of them based on our interest.
You an myself have had the benefit of higher education.
So do they. They have plenty of universities over there. If they want a "better" education a lot have typically come to the U.S., especially for medicine. My undergrad Adv. Research Prof. came from Iran and teaches at the U.M.
We are truly not the Muslims enemies....
That's a debate in itself but overall I can with an honest conscience say we haven't treated them well and I can honestly see why they feel that way.
They want to divide us and make us ineffective to facilitate change in that region.
Who says it's our right to make change in that region. It's their homeland and their lives. This is the kind of statement that just rubber stamps the other questions around them not liking us and how we "oppress" them without even thinking about it.
Originally posted by msan_msw
exactly how are we oppressing muslims in that region?
Look at the history. We divided their land without consideration of their history and ethnic and cultural boundaries. Look at Palestine, Iraq (3 nations in one), and look how we've typically treated muslims and others over there. We abandon them (like we did to the Kurds after the Gulf War), we use them (like we did in the Iran/Iraq war), we bomb them (obvious), and we make demands of them based on our interest.
You an myself have had the benefit of higher education.
So do they. They have plenty of universities over there. If they want a "better" education a lot have typically come to the U.S., especially for medicine. My undergrad Adv. Research Prof. came from Iran and teaches at the U.M.
We are truly not the Muslims enemies....
That's a debate in itself but overall I can with an honest conscience say we haven't treated them well and I can honestly see why they feel that way.
They want to divide us and make us ineffective to facilitate change in that region.
Who says it's our right to make change in that region. It's their homeland and their lives. This is the kind of statement that just rubber stamps the other questions around them not liking us and how we "oppress" them without even thinking about it.
You mean the British Mandate divided those countries after WWI. The Britsh and French were the powers in that area of the world. The US if you look back historically was uninterested in that area until after WW2 due to the cold war and we did not have much interest in Israel until 1973 and the Six Day War.
due to the Cold war with the USSR and the Arab Oil Embargoes.
The USSR was the one that collapsed and left a lot of Middle East countries hanging out in the wind.
Israel and Egypt receive about 2/3 of US financial Aid.
We have not abonded the Kurds..we still keep a no fly zone established over much of Kurd territory. Then to assist the Kurds wouldnt a regime change be in order?
How exactly have we mistreated Muslims? I read that a lot in the press but no big examples ever crop up.
The only example I am given is our support of Israel. I think that conflict is being furthered by the Arab countries in the area.. they talk peace out one side of the mouth but quietly fuel the flames of the conflict under the table..and seek to make us think we are the only ones to blame....doing a pretty good job of it too.
They want to divide us and make us ineffective to facilitate change in that region.
Who says it's our right to make change in that region. It's their homeland and their lives. This is the kind of statement that just rubber stamps the other questions around them not liking us and how we "oppress" them without even thinking about it.
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Well when it boils over to the US in the form of 9/11 and over 3000 dead citizens I think we better give that problem some serious thought
PaleDuke
10-07-02, 11:17 AM
Originally posted by msan_msw
They want to divide us and make us ineffective to facilitate change in that region.
Who says it's our right to make change in that region. It's their homeland and their lives. This is the kind of statement that just rubber stamps the other questions around them not liking us and how we "oppress" them without even thinking about it.
Word™
We can advise and help, if they want or ask. But who are we to head over there, guns blazin' with a "we know what's best for you" attitude ?
msan_msw
10-07-02, 11:18 AM
Well, I'm just saying why they dislike the "west" as much as the U.S.
The no_fly_zone didn't help much because tanks and APC's can't fly :)
Regardless, we're back to the same old argument :D
Originally posted by PaleDuke
Word™
We can advise and help, if they want or ask. But who are we to head over there, guns blazin' with a "we know what's best for you" attitude ?
I think over 3000 dead citizens and more to come kind of made it our problem....
Or do we just sit back cross our fingers and hope no more attacks occur?
Go back and look back at American History and see what happened when we just sat back and got fat and lazy...
sj_hurst
10-07-02, 11:19 AM
Originally posted by msan_msw
exactly how are we oppressing muslims in that region?
Look at the history. We divided their land without consideration of their history and ethnic and cultural boundaries.
We did not divide their land (formerly the Ottoman/Turkish Empire). It was mostly European (especially the British and French) and Asian countries who reshaped the Middle East. Germany and Russia had some influence too, but to a much lesser degree than the Brits.
http://www.friesian.com/turkia.htm
Edit: Eghad already got to this. Oh well. At any rate, check out the link for historical references.
Originally posted by msan_msw
Well, I'm just saying why they dislike the "west" as much as the U.S.
The no_fly_zone didn't help much because tanks and APC's can't fly :)
Regardless, we're back to the same old argument :D
I am sure the Kurds can defend against APCS and Infantry. Tanks and APCs do not work well in the mountains....
that argument has cost us over 3000 American Lives. Not to mention the lives lost during the Gulf war.
so we just set back and do nothing?
PaleDuke
10-07-02, 11:21 AM
Originally posted by EGhadsGhost
They want to divide us and make us ineffective to facilitate change in that region.
Who says it's our right to make change in that region. It's their homeland and their lives. This is the kind of statement that just rubber stamps the other questions around them not liking us and how we "oppress" them without even thinking about it.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Well when it boils over to the US in the form of 9/11 and over 3000 dead citizens I think we better give that problem some serious thought
That's what Afghanistan was all about ! Iraq has little to nothing to do with 9-11.
So we have two basic arguments
1. Sit back do nothing exept pin our hopes on the UN and other nations.
2. Take some action if the UN and the rest of the world fail to do so.
PaleDuke
10-07-02, 11:26 AM
Originally posted by EGhadsGhost
I think over 3000 dead citizens and more to come kind of made it our problem....
Or do we just sit back cross our fingers and hope no more attacks occur?
Go back and look back at American History and see what happened when we just sat back and got fat and lazy...
LOL :D
This thread is moving fast !
As I stated, Iraq is not responsible for 9-11. I'll go a step farther and say that just as the imams are blaming Israel/USA for their own problems, we are misdirecting blame on Iraq.
Originally posted by PaleDuke
That's what Afghanistan was all about ! Iraq has little to nothing to do with 9-11.
hrmmm
I thought Osama and most of the Hijackers were Saudi Citizens in a foriegn country? How many of the terrorist swho committed the crime were Afghans? Was not one of the visitors to Osama a Saudi VIP? Dont the Saudis fund a lot of these religious schools in the Arab nations...
Afghan was only the beggining in our battle...not the end
Typical American thinking again
WWI.. the war to end all wars
WW2..this has got to be it
Korea...
Vietnam
Gulf War
Afghanistan
hrmmmm
msan_msw
10-07-02, 11:31 AM
Originally posted by PaleDuke
Word™
We can advise and help, if they want or ask. But who are we to head over there, guns blazin' with a "we know what's best for you" attitude ?
Word :D Peace is really a team effort. We can blame them or we can listen to them. (but even constructing that sentence it smacks of "us"-"them").
Although what we are discussing is about "nations" I can't but help but look at these nations as individuals such as you would find at work, school, at the gym, neighbors, etc. Some you get along with well, some you just don't like. It just seems to me that in the current situation somebody came up and smacked us on the nose and we kicked their tail and turned around to find an old enemy because we were still peeved.... Normally those in the ever so necessary circle around he bus stop brawl like us but I'm beginning to wonder if they think he U.S. is now becoming a bit of a school yard bully when they used to lead by example. It's like we're out to "dominate" when we used to defend and deter....
I remember back when Bush was first elected I said we'd be at war within 18 months. Sept. 11th happened though and you can't blame hawkness reactions on that. Some response was going to happen. Still, I didn't figure our new world order would get around to Iraq so quickly. I figured we'd be out after terrorists still.
PaleDuke
10-07-02, 11:31 AM
edit: IRT EG's post, msan snuck one in there !
Then let's take out Saudi Arabia.
Seriously.
They are the real enemy here. Wasn't for the whole oil thang we'd have smacked 'em around a long time ago...lol.
Originally posted by PaleDuke
Then let's take out Saudi Arabia.
Seriously.
They are the real enemy here. Wasn't for the whole oil thang we'd have smacked 'em around a long time ago...lol.
I have been a proponent of a little tough love for the Saudi regime....
We need their oil but they need our money also we buy 25% of their oil. Their economic stance isnt that good right now..they need our dollars coming in on a timely basis. That is why I think a national energy policy needs to be focused on independence from Saudi Oil.
Originally posted by PaleDuke
LOL :D
This thread is moving fast !
As I stated, Iraq is not responsible for 9-11. I'll go a step farther and say that just as the imams are blaming Israel/USA for their own problems, we are misdirecting blame on Iraq.
can you say with 100% surety that Iraq has never provided aid to Al Queda? They have a track record of providing aid to other terrorist groups..........
msan_msw
10-07-02, 11:39 AM
Originally posted by PaleDuke
edit: IRT EG's post, msan snuck one in there !
Then let's take out Saudi Arabia.
Seriously.
They are the real enemy here. Wasn't for the whole oil thang we'd have smacked 'em around a long time ago...lol.
I have to quote, lol. Thread.. go.. too... fast... brain... hot...
I don't get what EG was trying to say. You said Iraq and he ran for a touchdown with Saudi, lol. Saudi Arabia is a friend more or less and lets us have the grease.
Osama and Saddam pretty much hate each other. They are totally on the opposite side of the spectrum. Iran and Saudi on the other hand are Osama favorites and vise versa. Why aren't we going after them? Grease....
Originally posted by msan_msw
Word :D Peace is really a team effort. We can blame them or we can listen to them. (but even constructing that sentence it smacks of "us"-"them").[B]
I dont think Saddam and some of the Arab Regimes want to be team players....
Its easier to blame us and stay in power than seek a constructive peace...
msan_msw
10-07-02, 11:41 AM
Originally posted by EGhadsGhost
can you say with 100% surety that Iraq has never provided aid to Al Queda? They have a track record of providing aid to other terrorist groups..........
Can you say for 100% certainty that Iraq has provided aid to al-Qaida? Considering that Bush says we have "bulletproof" evidence that inside experts at the CIA and other intel groups say isn't true.... it makes you wonder. If you have some I'd pass it on to Bush because he needs it :D Bush has really backed off from making the terror link with Iraq.. and it's for a reason....
Originally posted by msan_msw
Can you say for 100% certainty that Iraq has provided aid to al-Qaida? Considering that Bush says we have "bulletproof" evidence that inside experts at the CIA and other intel groups say isn't true.... it makes you wonder. If you have some I'd pass it on to Bush because he needs it :D Bush has really backed off from making the terror link with Iraq.. and it's for a reason....
He has provided support to other terrorist groups has he not?
Originally posted by msan_msw
I have to quote, lol. Thread.. go.. too... fast... brain... hot...
I don't get what EG was trying to say. You said Iraq and he ran for a touchdown with Saudi, lol. Saudi Arabia is a friend more or less and lets us have the grease.
Osama and Saddam pretty much hate each other. They are totally on the opposite side of the spectrum. Iran and Saudi on the other hand are Osama favorites and vise versa. Why aren't we going after them? Grease....
Blade II had an interesting quote....
Keep your friends close, keep your enemies closer.
Saudi is not our friend...if you think that we are in for a rude awakening someday.
We need oil, they need money
bout as simple as it gets...
Back in the cold war days the Saudis had two choices....
USSR and the US
I dont think the Saudi Royal Family saw an allaince with the USSR as being conducive to them staying in power...
They are patting us on the back with one hand..wonder whats in the other hand?
Love your nieghbor but dont cut your hedges down...
msan_msw
10-07-02, 11:52 AM
Originally posted by EGhadsGhost
He has provided support to other terrorist groups has he not?
You tell me, lol.
a quicke but I gotta go
http://www.terrorismanswers.com/sponsors/iraq.html
Yes. Saddam Hussein’s dictatorship has provided headquarters, operating bases, training camps, and other support to terrorist groups fighting the governments of neighboring Turkey
Iraqi President Saddam Hussein.
(AP Photo/Iraq News Agency)
and Iran, as well as to hard-line Palestinian groups. During the 1991 Gulf War, Saddam also commissioned several failed terrorist attacks on U.S. facilities. The State Department lists Iraq as a state sponsor of terrorism. The question of Iraq’s link to terrorism has become more urgent with Saddam’s determination to develop weapons of mass destruction, which Bush administration officials fear he might share with terrorists who could launch devastating attacks against the United States.
msan_msw
10-07-02, 12:07 PM
Originally posted by EGhadsGhost
During the 1991 Gulf War, Saddam also commissioned several failed terrorist attacks on U.S. facilities.
*snicker*
Look at that sentence you highlighted...
During the 1991 Gulf War....
.... attacks on U.S. facilities.
That's absurd to call that terrorism. We were at war, rotf.
sj_hurst
10-07-02, 02:15 PM
Who ever said that war and terrorism have to be mutually exclusive? :P
Originally posted by msan_msw
*snicker*
Look at that sentence you highlighted...
During the 1991 Gulf War....
.... attacks on U.S. facilities.
That's absurd to call that terrorism. We were at war, rotf.
by terrorists not memebers of the Iraqi armed forces.
At the present time he is funding bombers who are killing noncombatants and de-stabilizing the mideast region.
White_Rooque
10-07-02, 08:48 PM
This is what happens when you don't finish a job the first time
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