View Full Version : A little background on the three poloticians that went to Iraq
opus512
10-09-02, 11:10 PM
http://www.cnn.com/2002/ALLPOLITICS/10/09/column.shields.opinion.typical.dems/index.html
WASHINGTON (Creators Syndicate) -- Thanks to his federal government, Mike Thompson of St. Helena, in the Napa Valley of California, traveled overseas as a young man. The year was 1970, and 18-year-old Mike Thompson was in Southeast Asia, a paratrooper with the 173rd Army Airborne.
It was there in combat where he earned the Purple Heart for the permanent wounds he suffered.
He left the Army as a staff sergeant in 1973, went home, worked in the wine business, earned bachelor's and master's degrees and in 1990 became the first Vietnam vet elected to the California legislature. In 1998, he was elected to the Congress. I failed to mention that Mike Thomson is, according to the 2 million messages sent by the Republican National Committee quoting President George W Bush, one of those miscreants "not interested in the security of the American people" -- a Democrat!
In 1970, David Bonior of East Detroit, Michigan, the grandson of Polish and Ukrainian immigrants, the son of an auto worker, who had left the Catholic seminary to accept a football scholarship to the University of Iowa, was halfway through his own four-year hitch in the U.S. Air Force.
In 1976, after four years in the Michigan legislature, Bonior was elected to the Congress, where in 1991, he won a leadership race to become Democratic whip. Obviously, as the discerning reader can see, he, too, is someone "not interested in the security of the American people."
Thompson and Bonior, men who had answered their nation's call for the U.S. war against Vietnam, last week traveled along with their House colleague Dr. Jim McDermott, D-Washington, (who, coincidentally, in 1970 was an active duty U.S. Navy officer and psychiatrist treating Vietnam casualties) to Baghdad to try to avoid an all-but-inevitable U.S. war against Iraq.
What a travesty. Among the three lawmakers, during the nation's longest and most divisive foreign war, was 10 years of honorable military service—and their efforts at peace-making are attacked and condemned by little men whose own counterfeit patriotism led them to exploit college and graduate-school deferments until their own exposure to the draft ended at age 26. Was Jim McDermott's questioning in Iraq of President Bush's candor imprudent? Probably. Is Jim McDermott unpatriotic? Absolutely not.
ummm... Bonior never left the states he was a cook in the Air Force
the patients were as close as McDermott ever got to Vietnam.
I didnt see Thompson hogging the camera like the other two....
nor did he criticize the President on TV.
Bonior, who was in the Air Force during the Vietnam War, never left California, where he was stationed. His own Web site admits he was a cook "slinging hash by day" and going to college at night.
As for McDermott, he never left California either. He was a Navy psychiatrist in Long Beach who treated actual Vietnam vets when they got home," Hume reported Thursday night. Oh, those lucky patients.
real genuine Vietnam Veterans There........
nextbillgates
10-09-02, 11:38 PM
Originally posted by EGhadsGhost
Bonior, who was in the Air Force during the Vietnam War, never left California, where he was stationed. His own Web site admits he was a cook "slinging hash by day" and going to college at night.
As for McDermott, he never left California either. He was a Navy psychiatrist in Long Beach who treated actual Vietnam vets when they got home," Hume reported Thursday night. Oh, those lucky patients.
real genuine Vietnam Veterans There........
Still far more than the Bush and Co. warmongers did :D
opus512
10-09-02, 11:38 PM
Originally posted by EGhadsGhost
Bonior, who was in the Air Force during the Vietnam War, never left California, where he was stationed. His own Web site admits he was a cook "slinging hash by day" and going to college at night.
As for McDermott, he never left California either. He was a Navy psychiatrist in Long Beach who treated actual Vietnam vets when they got home," Hume reported Thursday night. Oh, those lucky patients.
real genuine Vietnam Veterans There........
Did't say they were 'vet's', but at least they serverd. Where the hell was Jr during Vietnam? Oh yeah, enjoying a nice cushy stint in the National Gaurd, campaigning for his Daddy's buddies. Real power Vet there, too, eh?
So was everyone that served during Vietnam but didn't go over sea's slackers? Did they pull some strings to stay state side, or were they just lucky?
ukstatboy
10-09-02, 11:41 PM
Originally posted by nextbillgates
Still far more than the Bush and Co. warmongers did :D
:D
http://www.talion.com/georgebush.html
msan_msw
10-09-02, 11:45 PM
I watched an interview with McDermott the other night. It was pretty interesting because he keeps a file of all the letters that were critical of his stand in this and his actions in Iraq. He pretty much went line by line over the negative responses people were sending (btw, 70% in his district supported him).
Republicans just need a scapegoat to mentally masturbate themselves around. It's some kind of perverse ritual they enjoy. They'll link him with Hanoi Jane and the like but as far as I can recall McDermott didn't go over there during the war while Jane did, McDermott did it to protect soldiers from being forced into a war by a president who is deliberately misleading the people and trying to start a war based on personal vendetta, suspect agenda, and putting the history and reputation of our country at risk. McDermott is more "pro-soldier" than Bush has ever been or will ever be.
Originally posted by nextbillgates
Still far more than the Bush and Co. warmongers did :D
Mr. Rumsfeld attended Princeton University on scholarship (AB, 1954) and served in the U.S. Navy (1954-57) as a Naval aviator.
Powell served two tours of duty in Vietnam
As Secretary of Defense from March 1989 to January 1993, Mr. Cheney directed two of the largest military campaigns in recent history - Operation Just Cause in Panama and Operation Desert Storm in the Middle East.
Originally posted by msan_msw
I watched an interview with McDermott the other night. It was pretty interesting because he keeps a file of all the letters that were critical of his stand in this and his actions in Iraq. He pretty much went line by line over the negative responses people were sending (btw, 70% in his district supported him).
Republicans just need a scapegoat to mentally masturbate themselves around. It's some kind of perverse ritual they enjoy. They'll link him with Hanoi Jane and the like but as far as I can recall McDermott didn't go over there during the war while Jane did, McDermott did it to protect soldiers from being forced into a war by a president who is deliberately misleading the people and trying to start a war based on personal vendetta, suspect agenda, and putting the history and reputation of our country at risk. McDermott is more "pro-soldier" than Bush has ever been or will ever be.
a matter of opinion...
well I hope his distict would be in favor of him....we wouldnt be talking about him right now if they didnt.
opus512
10-09-02, 11:52 PM
Originally posted by ukstatboy
:D
http://www.talion.com/georgebush.html
Nice link, worth a bookmark ;) :D
msan_msw
10-09-02, 11:53 PM
Yeah, here's a picture of our good comrade Rummy not only going to Iraq but shaking Saddam's hand. What if he's al-Qaida? What if he's got some sinister plan ahead? I think we need to take care of the "Rummy situation" before something bad happens down the road and you have your proof in that un-doctored picture below....
http://www.slackercentral.com/images/scmb/Rummy.jpg
nextbillgates
10-10-02, 12:00 AM
Mr. Rumsfeld attended Princeton University on scholarship (AB, 1954) and served in the U.S. Navy (1954-57) as a Naval aviator.
Not sure about Rummy's background, so I'll give you that.
Powell served two tours of duty in Vietnam
Powell isn't a warmonger ;)
As Secretary of Defense from March 1989 to January 1993, Mr. Cheney directed two of the largest military campaigns in recent history - Operation Just Cause in Panama and Operation Desert Storm in the Middle East.
Cheney also dodged the draft.
Originally posted by ukstatboy
:D
http://www.talion.com/georgebush.html
LOL
I hate to tell you guys this but most of those are standard military documents and correspondence. One of my jobs is working with military personnel records..lol
If that is what they are using they have a smoking pile of crap....
wish I had a $1.00 for everybody that missed a physical exam..lol
I looked at his attendance record for 1973... looked like he made about 30 + drills for the year. Guard and Reserve are only authorized 48 drills for a year....
Plus he served 21 months on Active Duty.....
Originally posted by msan_msw
Yeah, here's a picture of our good comrade Rummy not only going to Iraq but shaking Saddam's hand. What if he's al-Qaida? What if he's got some sinister plan ahead? I think we need to take care of the "Rummy situation" before something bad happens down the road and you have your proof in that un-doctored picture below....
http://www.slackercentral.com/images/scmb/Rummy.jpg
LOL... Betcha Mcdermott and Bonior have one like that too :D
opus512
10-10-02, 12:18 AM
Originally posted by EGhadsGhost
I looked at his attendance record for 1973... looked like he made about 30 + drills for the year. Guard and Reserve are only authorized 48 drills for a year....
Where did you find these attendance records that prove he attended 30+ drills for 1973?
Originally posted by opus512
Where did you find these attendance records that prove he attended 30+ drills for 1973?
its right there in the list
it has duty dates with the type of duty and the points awarded.. you only get points if you do duty..lol
Thanks for proving my theory
If you dont know what you are looking at anybody can scan a document and make a big deal over it like its an important piece of evidence...LOL
opus512
10-10-02, 12:27 AM
Originally posted by EGhadsGhost
its right there in the list
it has duty dates with the type of duty and the points awarded.. you only get points if you do duty..lol
Thanks for proving my theory
If you dont know what you are looking at anybody can scan a document and make a big deal over it like its an important piece of evidence...LOL
Post the link to the specific document, please, as I understood it, only his personal records showed what 'points' he was awarded.
Or are thse one of the ripped up documents that only show a 'W' on them where they are signed?
ukstatboy
10-10-02, 12:33 AM
Originally posted by opus512
Post the link to the specific document, please, as I understood it, only his personal records showed what 'points' he was awarded.
Or are thse one of the ripped up documents that only show a 'W' on them where they are signed?
There's this
Some records show Bush attended some drills in mid-1973, but his official discharge papers that summarize his truncated service in the Guard do not credit Bush with any drills after April 1972 - 18 months before his discharge.
from here
http://www.boston.com/news/politics/campaign2000/news/
Republican_ticket_lets_a_military_connection_slip+ .shtml
Could just be bad bookkeeping.
Originally posted by opus512
Post the link to the specific document, please, as I understood it, only his personal records showed what 'points' he was awarded.
Or are thse one of the ripped up documents that only show a 'W' on them where they are signed?
http://users.cis.net/coldfeet/doc16.gif
opus512
10-10-02, 12:36 AM
Hm, first link I get a dead page, bad link.
Second one shows, from what I see, ten instances of points earned.
What's the significance in number of points, as some are 1, some are 8, some are 4, etc.?
Originally posted by opus512
Hm, first link I get a dead page, bad link.
Second one shows, from what I see, ten instances of points earned.
What's the significance in number of points, as some are 1, some are 8, some are 4, etc.?
each point counts for 1 drill
Guard and Reserve are only Auth 48 per year...
Like I said most of those documents are standard forms and correspondence...nothing out of the ordinary....
msan_msw
10-10-02, 12:42 AM
Originally posted by opus512
Hm, first link I get a dead page, bad link.
Second one shows, from what I see, ten instances of points earned.
What's the significance in number of points, as some are 1, some are 8, some are 4, etc.?
This will get confusing quick if you don't know the military system, lol....
Each "drill" can be comprised of up to 5 MUTA (~4 hour blocks) I think (Multiple Unit Training Assembly) and you get paid by how many of those you attend. It keeps people from skipping half days too, lol. You get points for each. I don't know the full in's and out's as I hated AR, NG training :)
ukstatboy
10-10-02, 12:43 AM
Originally posted by opus512
Hm, first link I get a dead page, bad link.
Second one shows, from what I see, ten instances of points earned.
What's the significance in number of points, as some are 1, some are 8, some are 4, etc.?
Sorry about the first link. The URL wouldn't parse correctly. Paste in the 3 lines, and it should work.
That .gif of EGs comes from a website that links to this article with other information.
http://www.tompaine.com/feature.cfm/ID/3671
Has a chronological listing of service
http://users.cis.net/coldfeet/doc10.gif
Like I said the Docs on each site are standard Correspondence, nothing out of the unusual....
Originally posted by msan_msw
This will get confusing quick if you don't know the military system, lol....
Each "drill" can be comprised of up to 5 MUTA (~4 hour blocks) I think (Multiple Unit Training Assembly) and you get paid by how many of those you attend. It keeps people from skipping half days too, lol. You get points for each. I don't know the full in's and out's as I hated AR, NG training :)
auth 48 drills (UTA) consisting of 1 UTA = 4 hours
opus512
10-10-02, 09:09 AM
And all the other information is what, bullshit? The commander that claims he never showed for a year? Getting kicked off of flying for not taking a drug test? Lying about continuing to fly? Doing campaign work for his Daddy's buddy instead of doing Gaurd work? That's the biggest wipe of his ass, too me. I would htink most Vet's would have a serious issue with that, at least I would.
Bottom line is, he could clear all this up by releasing his personal military records, so untill he does, he's going have to deal with this shit.
ukstatboy
10-10-02, 09:22 AM
Originally posted by opus512
And all the other information is what, bullshit? The commander that claims he never showed for a year? Getting kicked off of flying for not taking a drug test? Lying about continuing to fly? Doing campaign work for his Daddy's buddy instead of doing Gaurd work? That's the biggest wipe of his ass, too me. I would htink most Vet's would have a serious issue with that, at least I would.
Bottom line is, he could clear all this up by releasing his personal military records, so untill he does, he's going have to deal with this shit.
It just provides more evidence that Bush is multi-mediocre. It's not a record that anyone should be proud of showing to others as proof that they did military service.
It's a sad state of affairs when someone will discount someone else's opinion because they are of a different political standing than yourself........
Originally posted by opus512
And all the other information is what, bullshit? The commander that claims he never showed for a year? Getting kicked off of flying for not taking a drug test? Lying about continuing to fly? Doing campaign work for his Daddy's buddy instead of doing Gaurd work? That's the biggest wipe of his ass, too me. I would htink most Vet's would have a serious issue with that, at least I would.
Bottom line is, he could clear all this up by releasing his personal military records, so untill he does, he's going have to deal with this shit.
LOL.. he didnt take a flight physical exam which pilots have to do yearly.. not a drug test..DOH!
That was an evaluation report not a claim he didnt show for a year...DOH! All the officer said was that he was not under his supervision directly so he couldnt rate him....
once again you prove that you do not have the slightest idea what you are looking at
I have been working with military records for over 15 years...how many years have you worked with them?
Originally posted by ukstatboy
It just provides more evidence that Bush is multi-mediocre. It's not a record that anyone should be proud of showing to others as proof that they did military service.
how many years have you worked with military records..lol
opus512
10-10-02, 08:34 PM
Originally posted by EGhadsGhost
I have been working with military records for over 15 years...how many years have you worked with them?
That doesn't mean jack shit, dude.
It's pretty much accepted he spent a year working on a Senate campaign for his Daddy's buddy, is that cool?
He wouldn't take a drug test, hm, wonder why?
He said he volluntered for extra flight duty, he didn't, and in fact couldn't.
I guess bagging on your military duty is only bad if you can't get your family to bail you out :rolleyes:
Originally posted by opus512
That doesn't mean jack shit, dude.
It's pretty much accepted he spent a year working on a Senate campaign for his Daddy's buddy, is that cool?
He wouldn't take a drug test, hm, wonder why?
He said he volluntered for extra flight duty, he didn't, and in fact couldn't.
I guess bagging on your military duty is only bad if you can't get your family to bail you out :rolleyes:
LOL......
typical reaction...from you
show the piece of paper where he failed to take a drug test...
If it was a crime to work on somebodys political campaign a lot of people would be in trouble....
opus512
10-10-02, 10:53 PM
Originally posted by EGhadsGhost
If it was a crime to work on somebodys political campaign a lot of people would be in trouble....
I'm pretty sure it's against the rules when you get a deferment to the Gaurd during active war time.
ukstatboy
10-11-02, 09:13 AM
Originally posted by EGhadsGhost
how many years have you worked with military records..lol
Myself, not much at all. I'm happy when the CHAMPUS claim forms are accepted. However, I feel like I know enough to see that Bush's rear-end was never in any real danger of getting sent into combat. And he calls what he did "military service?"
Here's military service. My dad in 1932 (at the age of 17) was chomping at the bit to joint the Army. He got his parents permission, did training in California, and was stationed in Hawaii. He earned a rank of MSgt, earned his expert marksmanship badges in rifle, field artillery, and coastal artillery. Had a lovely time when Hirohito friend's stopped by to say "hello." After that, he was transferred to the German front, had fun in Holland, found a nice bride in Germany, and returned to the states (Fort Sam Houston). He then did a full tour in the Korean War, deciding to call it quits in 1958.
My brother (at the age of 17) was chomping at the bit to join the Marines in 1967. My parents let him, and he did his training at Fort Belvoir before going over to do Vietnam. He got some lovely shrapnel from a hand grenade and only did 6 months there. He got out of the service in 1971 as a Corporal.
Myself, I was born in 1969, and my dad pretty much told me to not chomp at the bit nor join the military at the age of 17. However, if our way of life & liberty were at stake, I wouldn't hesitate to answer our nation's call.
I don't think that Bush really ever had that intention, using the National Guard as a dodge to avoid danger.
msan_msw
10-11-02, 09:34 AM
Originally posted by ukstatboy
However, if our way of life & liberty were at stake, I wouldn't hesitate to answer our nation's call.
Neither would I. However, once you scoop off the spin and agenda that's usually not the case (L & L). This is one reason I'm no longer in the military. I could even motivate myself to go to Iraq today but I couldn't in good conscience lead a group of other young folks knowing that I may have to sell them on something I don't even have full faith in. Additionally, I took an oath to support and defend the Constitution not to follow the suspect agenda of a President.
Why do people think the Guard and Reseves are a dodge to avoid going to war?
Guard and Reserve Soldiers have served in every major conflict.
Citizen Solders(militia) were the first troops to fight in the Revolution.
Reserve units served in Vietnam with distinvtion.
At this very moment soldiers in my command are serving in various trouble spots in the world.
Some even lose money from their civilian salaries to attend drill or when the are called up to active duty.
Originally posted by opus512
I'm pretty sure it's against the rules when you get a deferment to the Gaurd during active war time.
how so legal eagle........
ukstatboy
10-11-02, 10:40 AM
Originally posted by EGhadsGhost
Why do people think the Guard and Reseves are a dodge to avoid going to war?
I don't as a general rule. It's just that during the Vietnam War, joining the National Guard was seen as a way to avoid the draft and combat duty.
It was a calculated risk. Will your unit be called to duty, or do you have a greater chance at being picked by the draft and sent into combat after basic training?
opus512
10-11-02, 12:12 PM
Originally posted by EGhadsGhost
how so legal eagle........
I have no proof, I'm only going by what I think should be right.
So, your saying it was perfectly ok for Bush to spend a year of his Gaurd duty working on a campaign for one of his Dad's buddy's while we were at war, *and* have that time spent on a campaign count as time served in the Gaurd? I mean real war? With the draft going on? That was legal? It could have been, but even if so, was it acceptable? You honestly don't believe Bush got into the Gaurd to dodge active service? And being a pilot that was grounded after refusing to take a physical pretty much ends his chances of being sent over sea's, eh? Sorry, I can't see any more then that in it.
Originally posted by opus512
I have no proof, I'm only going by what I think should be right.
So, your saying it was perfectly ok for Bush to spend a year of his Gaurd duty working on a campaign for one of his Dad's buddy's while we were at war, *and* have that time spent on a campaign count as time served in the Gaurd? I mean real war? With the draft going on? That was legal? It could have been, but even if so, was it acceptable? You honestly don't believe Bush got into the Gaurd to dodge active service? And being a pilot that was grounded after refusing to take a physical pretty much ends his chances of being sent over sea's, eh? Sorry, I can't see any more then that in it.
LOL.... Guard duty is only 24 drill days a year plus 14 days annual training not 365/24/7. Most reservists and guardsmen have a civilian type 40 hour a week job.
I think that campaign job was the equivilent of his civilian job you doofus...
opus512
10-11-02, 03:36 PM
Originally posted by EGhadsGhost
LOL.... Guard duty is only 24 drill days a year plus 14 days annual training not 365/24/7. Most reservists and guardsmen have a civilian type 40 hour a week job.
I think that campaign job was the equivilent of his civilian job you doofus...
The issue being, is that while he was on that campaign, he didn't attend any Gaurd functions. At least that's what I get out of it.
[edit]
Ah, I don't want to go off into all that crap again. Obviously there are points on boths sides, you can have your side, I'll take mine, heh.
Originally posted by opus512
The issue being, is that while he was on that campaign, he didn't attend any Gaurd functions. At least that's what I get out of it.
[edit]
Ah, I don't want to go off into all that crap again. Obviously there are points on boths sides, you can have your side, I'll take mine, heh.
I win....
opus512
10-11-02, 04:12 PM
Originally posted by EGhadsGhost
I win....
No, I let you, I could hear the wheezing and gasping so I stopped :P
Originally posted by opus512
No, I let you, I could hear the wheezing and gasping so I stopped :P
none of that here... I weigh under 200 lbs...how about you..lol
Plaster
10-11-02, 06:54 PM
Originally posted by EGhadsGhost
none of that here... I weigh under 200 lbs...how about you..lol
lol, low blow. Keep the punches above the belt people. :D
opus512
10-11-02, 06:57 PM
Originally posted by EGhadsGhost
none of that here... I weigh under 200 lbs...how about you..lol
I's all below the waist and between the legs old man :P
Originally posted by opus512
I's all below the waist and between the legs old man :P
so the rest of that inflated look is hot air..lol
opus512
10-12-02, 09:45 AM
Originally posted by EGhadsGhost
so the rest of that inflated look is hot air..lol
Don't make me puff up on yo' old @ss :P
vBulletin® v3.8.1, Copyright ©2000-2013, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.