Learn the damm language!

[1badjedi]

Ok, now I wanna know what you peeps think?

I'm watchin a show today on the history channel and it was about peeps fleeing cuba. So they are talking to this survivor from a boat wreck that came from cuba in 97 and all the while it's bein done thru an interpreter. I'm like, WTF! Why doesnt this person know english by now?

If we are gonna be the paradise that some foreigners wanna come to, they should at least know how to speak the damm language after a year or 2. I mean, I wouldnt go to another country expecting them to jes know how to speak english:rolleyes: As far as refugees go, they should be required to learn the language in a certain amount of time or be deported. I shouldnt have to learn their language jes to communicate. I didnt go to their land, they came to mine.

I dont know, it jes irks me to no end when these people wont take the time to learn english. Or they do learn it an feign ignorance to it.

Discuss.

[DUKE HARDKNOCK]

Originally posted by 1badjedi
Learn the damm language!

[evil and I&W spelling nazi]

Goody. :evil:

[/evil and I&W spelling nazi]

I'm watchin a show today on the history channel and it was about peeps fleeing cuba. So they are talking to this survivor from a boat wreck that came from cuba in 97 and all the while it's bein done thru an interpreter. I'm like, WTF! Why doesnt this person know english by now?

[evil and I&W spelling nazi]

Oh, the irony!

[/evil and I&W spelling nazi]

If we are gonna be the paradise that some foreigners wanna come to, they should at least know how to speak the damm language after a year or 2. I mean, I wouldnt go to another country expecting them to jes know how to speak english:rolleyes: As far as refugees go, they should be required to learn the language in a certain amount of time or be deported. I shouldnt have to learn their language jes to communicate. I didnt go to their land, they came to mine.

[evil and I&W spelling nazi]

Oh, the irony!

[/evil and I&W spelling nazi]

I dont know, it jes irks me to no end when these people wont take the time to learn english. Or they do learn it an feign ignorance to it.

[evil and I&W spelling nazi]

OH, THE IRONY!! :evil::evil::evil:

[/evil and I&W spelling nazi]

Kidding aside, I do more or less agree with you. There's been *plenty* of immigrants in the Netherlands over the past few decades too, and certain groups have had real trouble adapting - although sadly enough this is in no small part to blame on certain previous governments we've had. Many immigrants have actually been (inadvertently or on purpose) sort of encouraged to maintain their culture and customs, isolating them from the rest of society and ultimately leading to considerable problems. It's my belief that anyone who wishes to settle here for more than three years should be taught how to speak and write Dutch.

[ukstatboy]

Originally posted by 1badjedi

I dont know, it jes irks me to no end when these people wont take the time to learn english. Or they do learn it an feign ignorance to it.

Discuss.

I don't have too much problem with people not knowing English when they first come over. Mom is German, and when she came over in the '40s, she just knew a few phases. She's picked it up on her own, but her spelling is still a little off. As a kid, it was interesting trying to decipher the grocery list.

What chafes my ass is when the government makes multi-lingual documents to accomodate those that refuse to learn. I'd say that folks would pick up English quicker if they had to fill out those needed forms in the English language.

[Blindf8th]

Droop agrees :D

Nothing worse than using an ATM machine and having to tell it what freakin language to use... Like anyone, if I move outside of the US, I learn the language myself or get stoned. Then again, who really cares what a Droop thinks... :headbang:

Droop <Its time to head home, later peeps>

[msan_msw]

I've already said my thoughts about this but in short we're a nation with a long history of immigration. Most of my family came over from Germany (although some came over on the Mayflower :) ) and couldn't speak a lick of english. Over time they learned the language and by the time my great grandma passed away she couldn't even remember any german! Anyway, I have no real problem with folks that don't speak english who live in America. It's not something that I feel we should be aggitated by. :) More or less, it's a tradition with deep roots in our society from German, Italian,... on and on... I've found that the "aggitation" grows the further the immigrant's origin is from Europe... :)

[PaleDuke]

What's the USA's official language ?

(rhetorical for those hitting google)

As to citizenship it's a requirement to show a working use of English. There are no legal requirements to speak any particular language for the purposes of residency. As to my own opinion, it's just common sense and courtesy, that when in Rome one does as the Romans...learn the language or at least raise your offspring in it.

[GrimFaceOfReality]

Originally posted by Blidd

Kidding aside, I do more or less agree with you. There's been *plenty* of immigrants in the Netherlands over the past few decades too, and certain groups have had real trouble adapting - although sadly enough this is in no small part to blame on certain previous governments we've had. Many immigrants have actually been (inadvertently or on purpose) sort of encouraged to maintain their culture and customs, isolating them from the rest of society and ultimately leading to considerable problems. It's my belief that anyone who wishes to settle here for more than three years should be taught how to speak and write Dutch.

The saddest thing is, there are free courses available that help you do just that. It took me a year to learn it; granted I will not be getting any literally accolades for it, very serviceable, within one year I could read and write on burgklas level (granted, my farther thought me a little Dutch back in the States). I don't want to negatively stereotype anyone, but... When our class started, we had around 30 people, most of them recent immigrants from Turkey and Morocco. Within a week, all but 2 of that number dropped out - as one of them said, "it was too hard and not worth it", (read: waster of time). We went from 32 to 14 people.

[DUKE HARDKNOCK]

Originally posted by GrimFaceOfReality
The saddest thing is, there are free courses available that help you do just that. It took me a year to learn it; granted I will not be getting any literally accolades for it, very serviceable, within one year I could read and write on burgklas level (granted, my farther thought me a little Dutch back in the States). I don't want to negatively stereotype anyone, but... When our class started, we had around 30 people, most of them recent immigrants from Turkey and Morocco. Within a week, all but 2 of that number dropped out - as one of them said, "it was too hard and not worth it", (read: waster of time). We went from 32 to 14 people.

Yeah, I'm well aware there are such courses available - but the problem is they're not mandatory. Anyone who wishes to live in the Netherlands *should* be able to speak Dutch; it's for everyone's best interest, after all. But if immigrants who don't even speak English and come from slightly retarded areas (I'm thinking of Moroccan ex-mountain villagers here) are allowed to go about their business and even be encouraged to maintain their cultural identities (that are usually quite incompatible with Dutch customs and laws), it's pretty frigging obvious there'll be trouble.

[1badjedi]

Originally posted by Blidd


Yeah, I'm well aware there are such courses available - but the problem is they're not mandatory. Anyone who wishes to live in the Netherlands *should* be able to speak Dutch; it's for everyone's best interest, after all. But if immigrants who don't even speak English and come from slightly retarded areas (I'm thinking of Moroccan ex-mountain villagers here) are allowed to go about their business and even be encouraged to maintain their cultural identities (that are usually quite incompatible with Dutch customs and laws), it's pretty frigging obvious there'll be trouble.


Yup;) There's always trouble.

[EG]

Well whenever I have had to travel to another country I took the time to learn the vital words


beer
restrooms
drug store
taxi
airport
thank you
your welcome

ect................

[sj_hurst]

People who don't speak the native language of a country really limit their opportunities. If they don't want to learn the language, fine. But they're only hurting their chances for making a better living (i.e. getting a better job and making more money).

I've found that the "aggitation" grows the further the immigrant's origin is from Europe...

Interesting... I've never seen or met a European person visiting the U.S. who couldn't speak English. None of my European ancestors had a problem with learning English and they all emphasized it as the primary language to their offspring (born in the U.S.).

[1badjedi]

Originally posted by sj_hurst
Interesting... I've never seen or met a European person visiting the U.S. who couldn't speak English. None of my European ancestors had a problem with learning English and they all emphasized it as the primary language to their offspring (born in the U.S.).


The main offenders I have had contact with are all of spanish descent.

[sj_hurst]

Originally posted by 1badjedi



The main offenders I have had contact with are all of spanish descent.

It's becoming a subculture in this nation. Someday, Spanish will be spoken as commonly as English in the U.S., if not more so. This is probably less than half a century away from happening. Population growth (mostly hispanic immigrants) dictates a high probability of this occurring. Also, hispanic families have something like 4-6 children per family. Whites (in the U.S.), have about 1-2. It averages out to 2.3 children per family or so they say, but as the hispanic population grows, birth rate percentages will increase. And as you've implied, most hispanic immigrants insist on sticking with Spanish as their primary language. I'm not against any of this and there's nothing I can do about it anyway. Regardless, it means that most Americans may need to learn how to speak Spanish sometime in the not too distant future.

[1badjedi]

Originally posted by sj_hurst


It's becoming a subculture in this nation. Someday, Spanish will be spoken as commonly as English in the U.S., if not more so. This is probably less than half a century away from happening. Population growth (mostly hispanic immigrants) dictates a high probability of this occurring. Also, hispanic families have something like 4-6 children per family. Whites (in the U.S.), have about 1-2. It averages out to 2.3 children per family or so they say, but as the hispanic population grows, birth rate percentages will increase. And as you've implied, most hispanic immigrants insist on sticking with Spanish as their primary language. I'm not against any of this and there's nothing I can do about it anyway. Regardless, it means that most Americans may need to learn how to speak Spanish sometime in the not too distant future.


I heard how the spanish speaking community is spreading like a wildfire in texas. I dont know what they do elsewhere, but the ones in philly do 3 things: collect welfare, sell drugs and make babies. Damm shame the taxpayer is bein abused like this.

[sj_hurst]

Originally posted by 1badjedi
I heard how the spanish speaking community is spreading like a wildfire in texas.

True.


Originally posted by 1badjedi
I dont know what they do elsewhere, but the ones in philly do 3 things: collect welfare, sell drugs and make babies. Damm shame the taxpayer is bein abused like this.

Probably true for the most part, except most of them work here. They have no choice. Texas welfare sux, if you're a liberal. It's difficult to qualify for, benefits are limited in time and limited in amount of $'s allowed to be handed out.

[Blackadder]

Originally posted by 1badjedi



I heard how the spanish speaking community is spreading like a wildfire in texas. I dont know what they do elsewhere, but the ones in philly do 3 things: collect welfare, sell drugs and make babies. Damm shame the taxpayer is bein abused like this.

same things could be said about burmese refugees in Thailand.

[EG]

Originally posted by Blackadder


same things could be said about burmese refugees in Thailand.

newsflash....Texas had a lot of Hispanic citizens who were here when Texas was part of mexico *cough*

[opus512]

Originally posted by EGhadsGhost


newsflash....Texas had a lot of Hispanic citizens who were here when Texas was part of mexico *cough*

Heheheh.

[sj_hurst]

Originally posted by opus512


Heheheh.

An interesting side note: Mexicans don't harbor ill will nor bad intentions toward the U.S. for the Mexican-U.S. war. They think of Santa Anna, their president at that time, who sought to evict Anglo Texans (from what is now Texas), as a villain and greedy, abusive aristocrat. They blame him for their sour history with the U.S. Of course, that sour historical relationship was relatively short-lived. :)

[Blackadder]

Originally posted by EGhadsGhost


newsflash....Texas had a lot of Hispanic citizens who were here when Texas was part of mexico *cough*

ditto. burmese decendents are in thailand when parts of what is Modern Thailand was occupied by the Burmese.






Pointless fact: Technically, thailand has been at war with burma since 1279. peace has never been officially declared(according to the official records any way.)

[sj_hurst]

Originally posted by Blackadder


ditto. burmese decendents are in thailand when parts of what is Modern Thailand was occupied by the Burmese.






Pointless fact: Technically, thailand has been at war with burma since 1279. peace has never been officially declared(according to the official records any way.)

Burma? Didn't they rename that country to Myanmar? And why the name change?

[Blackadder]

Originally posted by sj_hurst


Burma? Didn't they rename that country to Myanmar? And why the name change?

They did that when the Military took over the country a few months after the British left.






pointless fact: The only reason hostilities stopped between Burma & Thailand was because the british colonised Burma.

[sj_hurst]

Originally posted by Blackadder
They did that when the Military took over the country a few months after the British left.

So the Brits had their fun raping the land (ruby mines, etc) and then packed their bags and skipped town (abandoned the people)? Damn Brits tried to do that to us Americans too. Except, we gave 'em hell and forced 'em out. lol

Wait a minute... Blackadder? That's an English call-sign, isn't it? heh Sorry guy, my comments were not meant to be personal. Actually, my last name is English. Albeit, my first ancestor to have ventured to America, arrived in 1598. And his decendents (some number of them anyway) probably fought the British in the Revolutionary War. It's just something to reflect on, as it's only history. The world constantly and consistently changes. Yesterday's enemy is tomorrow's friend (and vice versa sometimes, unfortunately).

[Blackadder]

Originally posted by sj_hurst


So the Brits had their fun raping the land (ruby mines, etc) and then packed their bags and skipped town (abandoned the people)? Damn Brits tried to do that to us Americans too. Except, we gave 'em hell and forced 'em out. lol

Wait a minute... Blackadder? That's an English call-sign, isn't it? heh Sorry guy, my comments were not meant to be personal. Actually, my last name is English. Albeit, my first ancestor to have ventured to America, arrived in 1598. And his decendents (some number of them anyway) probably fought the British in the Revolutionary War. It's just something to reflect on, as it's only history. The world constantly and consistently changes. Yesterday's enemy is tomorrow's friend (and vice versa sometimes, unfortunately).

with the US the british has already raped & pillaged the land. notice the minute amount of natives who remained. ditto for south America.

Blackadder is the name of a british comedy charactor(sp?) & the name of an Allblacks rugby player.

[sj_hurst]

South America? Spanish decendents took over those lands, not British. Also, the U.S. had more German immigrants than Brits when you look at the big picture. Albeit, the Brits were among the first (after the Spanish) to colonize the Americas.

[Blackadder]

Originally posted by sj_hurst
South America? Spanish decendents took over those lands, not British. Also, the U.S. had more German immigrants than Brits when you look at the big picture. Albeit, the Brits were among the first (after the Spanish) to colonize the Americas.

sorry I forgot, I was talking about european powers in general. heh, actually, come to think about it, there's only 3 reasons why the British or the French never colonised Thailand.

1. Thailand serves as a convenient buffer state between British Burma and French Indochina.

2. It would cost them too much resorces and man power to occupy thailand.

3. The Thai royal family was very close to the Russian Czar and their Royal Family.

[sj_hurst]

Most races have sought conquest at some point in history, not just the Europeans. The Mongels, the Egyptians, the Turks, the Chinese, the Japanese. The list goes on, but that's all I can recall at the moment. It's just that the Europeans were the most successful at it (I'm not saying it's a good thing nor is it something to be proud of). Well, except the Mongels (under G.Khan) and the Turkish Empire managed to conquer most of the world at their respective heights of power. Before that, during the time of the Vikings, the Arab land around Iraq was the most powerful region of the world (can't recall the name, maybe Persia I think).

[Sir_Gallahad]

I have heard over 12 different languages in one freaking day here at IU. That's because we have students from over 100 different countries. It really does tend to get a bit annoying. Especially since those who don't bother to learn english tend to not know how to order a freakin Latte at work. You want a cabbage in that?!! Um.........................LEARN ENGLISH!!! :P

[Blackadder]

Originally posted by Sir_Gallahad
I have heard over 12 different languages in one freaking day here at IU. That's because we have students from over 100 different countries. It really does tend to get a bit annoying. Especially since those who don't bother to learn english tend to not know how to order a freakin Latte at work. You want a cabbage in that?!! Um.........................LEARN ENGLISH!!! :P

I know english, but I still speak to other Thai people in Thai any way.

[opus512]

The Europeans weren't necesarily the succesfull, they were just the most recent, heh.

As for foreign languages spoken, in LA alone there are over 140 different and destinct languages spoken.

Not saying anything either way about speaking English or not, but I think that's cool as hell, myself.

[sj_hurst]

Originally posted by opus512
The Europeans weren't necesarily the succesfull, they were just the most recent, heh.

I disagree. Who amassed the most wealth, technological innovation, and enabled the highest standard of living in history? The Europeans, that's who. It's sort of evil, but that's life I guess. Don't feel too bad, the western world is definitely in its decline. The east/asia will rise to power (econonically, politically, and militarily) and surpass the west eventually. These changes have already started. The concentrations of world power are always changing and moving. You could call it (change) an absolute. But the question always remains, will they (the powers that be) be able to maintain their power for very long? History indicates that most advanced civilizations last less than 500 years.

[opus512]

In total terms the Euopeans may be the most succesfull, but we're they 'richer' then the Egyptians? That seem's a bit arbitrary for me to decide either way.

[sj_hurst]

Originally posted by opus512
In total terms the Euopeans may be the most succesfull, but we're they 'richer' then the Egyptians? That seem's a bit arbitrary for me to decide either way.

Yes, they were/are richer than the Egyptians. Even if you're thinking in terms of gold, you're wrong. There's more gold in Fort Knox than the Egyptians ever had. Anyway, the Egyptian peoples worked so hard, for so little, because they were extremely religious. They devoted their lives to their Pharaohs because they really believed that the Pharaohs were gods. The elaborate burial of the Pharaohs and the Egyptians' tremendous amount of work to build the pyramids proves how dedicated they were to their religion. You see, the pyramid was constructed for the Pharaohs by the Egyptian people (on a voluntary basis) because they believed that they were building a gateway to the afterlife (so that their gods, the Pharaohs, could return to a place that gave him power, supernatural divine power, to watch over the them (bring prosperity and safety to the Egyptian people). Yeah, IMO the Egyptians had slaves. The bible and archeological evidence documents that. But most of the work on the Pyramids was thought to have been done by Egyptians, not slaves. Anyway, Egyptian hieroglyphs indicate that. And archeologists are capable of 100% translation of their writing (hieroglyphs) thanks to the discovery of the Rosetta stone.

[opus512]

New studies and evidence show that a lot of pyramid workers lived fairly well during their service. They were buried in a social patter (not the best way to describe it), higher rankings up higher on the mounds.

But the gold in Fort Knox I don't know if that's comparable to the gold the Egyptians had, not really applicable in times compared? Does that make sense?

Anyway, I see your drift, I just think it's not quite as clear cut as you, maybe.

[sj_hurst]

Originally posted by opus512
New studies and evidence show that a lot of pyramid workers lived fairly well during their service. They were buried in a social patter (not the best way to describe it), higher rankings up higher on the mounds.

But the gold in Fort Knox I don't know if that's comparable to the gold the Egyptians had, not really applicable in times compared? Does that make sense?

Anyway, I see your drift, I just think it's not quite as clear cut as you, maybe.

Actually, I agree. I was merely trying to speculate about what you're thinking about the differences between the Egyptians and modern civilizations. Yeah, it is mysterious as to why technological development suddenly boomed starting with the industrial revolution (GB's brainchild), considering that modern humans have been around for at least 250,000 years (or so they say). And of course GB was centuries more primitive than many societies for most of the time/history prior to the industrial revolution. But then again, GB also developed the skeleton of the legal, accounting, and economic/monetary systems we're using now. My guess is that the development of modern economics has a great deal to do with the rapid changes that have taken place in the last 200 years or so. GB, although it did evil things to expand its empire over the last several centuries, is probably the root of mankind’s most recent advancements. Your guess as to why GB changed so abruptly and rapidly is as good as mine. Maybe the spread of greed is the reason? Ok, maybe. Maybe greed is good after all? Well, not likely. Because one person's wealth is the fuel that feeds the fire of another person's poverty (at least regarding expansionist empires). But my comparing expansion to overall economics probably isn't fair or accurate (and its only an indirect correlation at best). This topic is something that we could spend several lifetimes pondering (the rise and fall of civilizations), and we'd never understand it completely.

[3dfxMM]

What's the USA's official language ?
This thread is giving me the impression that people here in this forum think it is English.

[opus512]

There is no 'official' language in the US.

Far as I know anyway.

[Blindf8th]

Please Opus, dont even try that argument...

[3dfxMM]

What argument would that be. He is right that there is no official language in the U.S. English is certainly considered by most Americans to be the language of choice in the U.S., but it isn't the official language.

[Blindf8th]

oh really? Where did you go to school? What has everyone in America ever been taught? No standard.... Yall need to head back to that weed legalization topic, apparently thats yalls specialty lol :D

Droop <no official language BAH!>

[Slacker]

Originally posted by 1badjedi
I heard how the spanish speaking community is spreading like a wildfire in texas. I dont know what they do elsewhere, but the ones in philly do 3 things: collect welfare, sell drugs and make babies. Damm shame the taxpayer is bein abused like this.

Either you're kidding, or you win the prize for the stupidest thing ever said on this board. Either way, congrats!

[PaleDuke]

Originally posted by Malachi
oh really? Where did you go to school? What has everyone in America ever been taught? No standard.... Yall need to head back to that weed legalization topic, apparently thats yalls specialty lol :D

Droop <no official language BAH!>

Look it up Malachi. ;)

[Blindf8th]

hmm, I wonder what the official language for Paris, China, and Brazil? Maybe Pale needs to follow suit and join the folks on crack in the legalization page as well :yb:

Now technically, I cannot show you where it is written in stone. Logicially, you all know that any argument opposing this known fact is just idiotic...

Droop <sheesh you weed smokin fools>

[sj_hurst]

Of course they don't want to make it official. What better way to keep immigrants ignorant, illiterate, and poor? Obviously, not knowing English in the U.S. is a handicap in most cases. IMO, this point is clear and simple. In terms of living and surviving in the U.S., I find that knowing how to speak English (also, reading and writing English) is a necessity. I'd be lost/confused everyday without knowing it, as would most people in this great nation. Like Droop said, you'z be doped up foo's. :D

[Anthaus]

Originally posted by sj_hurst


An interesting side note: Mexicans don't harbor ill will nor bad intentions toward the U.S. for the Mexican-U.S. war.

Of course not. We harbor ill will and a lot of unresolved anger against the US for California, Arizona and New Mexico!!!

Edit: Now, don't you worry. We host a wide variety of negative feelings towards everything in this world except beer, tequila and the Virgin Mary.

[sj_hurst]

Originally posted by Anthaus


Of course not. We harbor ill will and a lot of unresolved anger against the US for California, Arizona and New Mexico!!!

Edit: Now, don't you worry. We host a wide variety of negative feelings towards everything in this world except beer, tequila and the Virgin Mary.


Duely noted. Albeit, the Virgin Mary says you must forgive. ;)

Well I say, give it all back to the Indians. Afterall, they were here first.

[Slacker]

Originally posted by Malachi
Now technically, I cannot show you where it is written in stone. Logicially, you all know that any argument opposing this known fact is just idiotic...

Sorry cowboy, it's not a known fact. And personally I think making an argument you can only back up with "c'mon, you know! remember?" is just idiotic. No offense :D

To everyone in this thread complaining that these people aren't bothering to learn the language you prefer, consider this situation:

A young man comes to the U.S. legally. He works as a day laborer for minimum wage (hopefully). His work varies from week to week. One week he'll be digging holes on a constuction site. The foreman speaks Spanish to him. The other people working speak Spanish to him. After working 10-12 hours he heads home to an apartment he's leasing with three other migrant workers. He eats, and then spends an hour or two writing home to tell his family how he's doing and to send them as much of the tiny amount of money he's made.

How dare this man not stuggle to learn English! :rolleyes:

The funniest thing about this thread is just how stupid the "problems" caused by our multi-lingual society you all mentioned are. Please correct me if you were kidding:

Originally posted by 1badjedi
So they are talking to this survivor from a boat wreck that came from cuba in 97 and all the while it's bein done thru an interpreter. I'm like, WTF! Why doesnt this person know english by now?

That must have just ruined your whole day. God forbid you listen words coming out of a translator instead of the actual person for 5 minutes.

Originally posted by ukstatboy
What chafes my ass is when the government makes multi-lingual documents to accomodate those that refuse to learn. I'd say that folks would pick up English quicker if they had to fill out those needed forms in the English language.

You have to be kidding on this. You just have to.

Originally posted by sj_hurst
Interesting... I've never seen or met a European person visiting the U.S. who couldn't speak English. None of my European ancestors had a problem with learning English and they all emphasized it as the primary language to their offspring (born in the U.S.).

Ah, thinly vieled racism. Where would we be without it? The people who came here by boat will always look down on the people who came by foot, and I'll never understand why.

Originally posted by Sir_Gallahad
I have heard over 12 different languages in one freaking day here at IU. That's because we have students from over 100 different countries. It really does tend to get a bit annoying. Especially since those who don't bother to learn english tend to not know how to order a freakin Latte at work. You want a cabbage in that?!! Um.........................LEARN ENGLISH!!! :P

Do people speaking too quietly annoy you too? Do you just have to know what everyone around you is saying? Don't worry, it only looks like they're talking about you.

Originally posted by sj_hurst
Of course they don't want to make it official. What better way to keep immigrants ignorant, illiterate, and poor? Obviously, not knowing English in the U.S. is a handicap in most cases.

So which is it? The lazy immigrants don't want to learn the language, or the government wants to keep them down and won't teach them?

Anyway, if someone wants to let me know a tangible problem that can arise when foriegners don't learn English immediately when they get here, I'd love to hear it.

Personally, like Opus I think it's cool that we have so many people speaking different languages in our country.

[sj_hurst]

Originally posted by Slacker
Ah, thinly vieled racism. Where would we be without it? The people who came here by boat will always look down on the people who came by foot, and I'll never understand why.


I've stated my observations. IMO, noticing what languages various peoples speak is not racism, but maybe that's just me. Also, it's probable that more Europeans speak english than, say, people from South America or Africa. I'd bet that the stats back that up as well. Your the one making mountains out of mole hills. I believe that knowing English would benefit people living in this country because it helps them in their daily lives, communicate with others such as co-workers, network to find new jobs, get an education... the list goes on. Certainly, I don't believe in forcing English on anyone here. That's not what this country is about anyway. Freedom of speech clearly dictates that. However, you accused me of having veiled racism (clearly an insult). That, I will never forget.

[sj_hurst]

Originally posted by Slacker
So which is it? The lazy immigrants don't want to learn the language, or the government wants to keep them down and won't teach them?

Yet another undeserved insult. If you read my posts, you would know that I support giving these peoples citizenship so that they can have benefits (and their children can get an education here). Where or when did I ever say that they were lazy? Sure, illegal immigrants are underpaid, but that doesn't mean that they're lazy. However, it does mean that the current system is taking advantage of their status of non-citizens, which I clearly disagreed with in at least a few of my postings. C'ya.

[incandescent]

Originally posted by Slacker
A young man comes to the U.S. legally. He works as a day laborer for minimum wage (hopefully). His work varies from week to week. One week he'll be digging holes on a constuction site. The foreman speaks Spanish to him. The other people working speak Spanish to him. After working 10-12 hours he heads home to an apartment he's leasing with three other migrant workers. He eats, and then spends an hour or two writing home to tell his family how he's doing and to send them as much of the tiny amount of money he's made.

Well, if the young man took some time to learn english, albiet slowly, his available opportunities will skyrocket.

Ah, thinly vieled racism. Where would we be without it? The people who came here by boat will always look down on the people who came by foot, and I'll never understand why.

actually its not. English has a lot in common with German and the Germanic langauges. And believe it or not, its probably due to the economic differrences: Europe has a lot more money to throw around at things like education than Mexico. It insteresting that you see a lot of people from around the world posting here, and thats a fantastic fact... but (no offense to any mexican poster here) you will find that most of these peoples come from a place that was "touched" by Europe. I believe its simply because there is more money in these places... the people have more leisure time, or more time in schools because they have that opportunity. It's a damn shame that Mexico, with all its great natural resources, can't do the same. You may also notice how there isnt a huge rush anymore from the bigger European countries to "Start a new life in America," what we are witnessing now with the immigrants from Mexico is similar to the situation at the beginning of our Industrial Revolution. Blah blah blah. In short, its not racist to say what he said, given the fact that its not a directed, discrimination or prejudice based on race.


Anyway, if someone wants to let me know a tangible problem that can arise when foriegners don't learn English immediately when they get here, I'd love to hear it.

its not that they learn it immediately, rather they learn it.

Personally, like Opus I think it's cool that we have so many people speaking different languages in our country.

yes, it is one of the things that makes America great. However, there are obvious opportunities that come with the ability to speak/read/write English in America. While its one thing to help preserve a heritage and a culture(good thing), its another thing to deny the obvious importance of the English language(bad thing).

[sj_hurst]

Originally posted by incandescent
You may also notice how there isnt a huge rush anymore from the bigger European countries to "Start a new life in America," what we are witnessing now with the immigrants from Mexico is similar to the situation at the beginning of our Industrial Revolution.

That's exactly where I'm coming from. My mother told me about her great grandfather (he spoke like 4 or 5 languages) who was a newcomer to the U.S. The language he emphasized to his children was English because that's what many (probably most) Americans were speaking. IMO, he taught them English instead German because he wanted his children and his children's children to have more opportunities. That's all I meant by it. I'm sorry for offending some people. :(

[opus512]

As for different people coming here from different countries having different views on learning english, that has changed over the course of time between the 30's to 50's and now. People came here then not only for economic reasons, but for a whole life change, they came here to 'be' Americans, not just work in America.

Because of that there was a much more, IMO, desire to 'be' an American, which meant learning english, then now. A lot of people come here now for nothing more then a job. Whether that is good or bad is a personal opinion.

I agree with Slacker on one point, that he maybe didn't explain or state the best way, that people that came here by boat look down at people that came here on foot. I have found that to be a generalization that is true. Whether that is rascism, or bigotry, or simple ignorance, I don't know, maybe a little of all three.

And Sj I think made the point that most European countries have more money to spend on education, and there for better able to teach their people multiple languages, then the poorer countries we see people coming from now, and I think that's true to a point.

But America has a lot more in common with Europe then Asian and South American countries, after all, we came from there originaly. At least the caucasions did. We also have more interaction with Europe, so there is more reason for them to learn english then some other countries.

America is getting away, for what ever reason, from the whole original 'melting pot' idea, both with newcomers and with people that have been here a while. And I think that's a shame. Much like Rome, American culture isn't so much unique in and of itself, as a unique blend of other cultures that we embrace and make part of our own.

I hate to see the Balkanization of the country that we have had going on for the last couple decades. I hate to see people coming here just to use our countries resources and then leave, but at least they take an understanding of us and our culture with them back to their homeland, and at least we better the world through that.

[sj_hurst]

Originally posted by opus512
I hate to see the Balkanization of the country that we have had going on for the last couple decades. I hate to see people coming here just to use our countries resources and then leave, but at least they take an understanding of us and our culture with them back to their homeland, and at least we better the world through that.

Maybe that's why more than 70% of assets in America are foreign owned. But hey, who cares about American pride or loyalty to your fellow Americans. They're not Americans, first and foremost anyway, so who cares? It's cool, these days, to sell out in exchange for a cozy retirement. IMO, you'll see that our day in the sun will come to an abrupt end, in the not too distant future. Oh well, it'll probably happen after I'm dead anyway, so what does it matter? (In case you don't pick up the sarcasm, read on)

Personally, I don't give a rats ass about someone's race. I'm a blended mix (akin to a mutt) of at least 4 or 5 races myself and one of them is Spanish. All humans are more than 99% DNA identical so race is beside the point. However, the future of this country is what I worry about. Is that so immoral or wrong? I favor the idea of immigrants. They're good for the economy. I'd like to think we're offering them something too (like decent educations and employment, if it's less than ideal in their homelands). What's so bad about my thinking that learning English in the U.S. is a good thing? Learning other languages is good too. If I were to live in Germany, I'd try my damndest to learn the German language. Is this a bad thing too? :confused: If someone's unable/unwilling to learn a language for whatever reason (like wanting to pass on tradition/heritage for example), I don't and won't blame them for that either.

[Slacker]

Originally posted by incandescent
its not that they learn it immediately, rather they learn it.

And how does that affect you if they don't?

And sj_hurst, I apologize. I felt like you were painting with kind of a broad brush, so I called you on it. I understand what you're saying though.

[Blindf8th]

Originally posted by Slacker
Sorry cowboy, it's not a known fact. And personally I think making an argument you can only back up with "c'mon, you know! remember?" is just idiotic. No offense :D

hmmm :yb: What language were you taught and why? I'm assuming English, and you were taught it not becuase you were raised by racist parents, but only because it is the standard communication medium that we have here in America. I don't need to refer to anyones quoted document for you to see this.

To everyone in this thread complaining that these people aren't bothering to learn the language you prefer, consider this situation:
A young man comes to the U.S. legally. He works as a day laborer for minimum wage (hopefully). His work varies from week to week. One week he'll be digging holes on a constuction site. The foreman speaks Spanish to him. The other people working speak Spanish to him. After working 10-12 hours he heads home to an apartment he's leasing with three other migrant workers. He eats, and then spends an hour or two writing home to tell his family how he's doing and to send them as much of the tiny amount of money he's made.How dare this man not stuggle to learn English! :rolleyes:


This is a perfect example. His day to day work life is focused in an environment where he does not have to utilize English one bit. However, what happens when he goes to by groceries and the check out clerk does not speak Spanish and cannot understand what he says for basic communication/transactions. This clerk can be any nationality, but I assure you that the clerk speaks English. Why is that?

The only flip side to this, would be if this immigrant lived in a mostly spanish neighborhood (like this isn't common) which had a local grocery store that had mainly spanish immigrant people employeed there. Now in this case, they are building a city/life under the umbrella of segregation. They refuse to learn the basic communication skills and choose to stick to there own. Some may expand and work on English skills and communication for better opportunity and some will not. Some will be a positive force on Society, but again some will not (this applies to all peeps). Either way though I think it should be mandatory that you learn the language of America which is English. You can learn as many as you would like mind you, but English is a must.

If all these non-English speaking people did was ONLY interact with each other and it did not effect me or people in general directly, I could see your point.
Fact is I have worked where people could not communicate with one another. These people hindered the work environment and it was a constant struggle. It wasted time and effort on simple tasks that could not be performed because they did not bring basic communication skills to the table. This does not make me better or worse than these people, but am I suppose to learn Spanish to work and function in America? I think not

Lastly, what I referenced is directed at those that choose to live in America yet do choose to play a positive roll on society, they hurt it.

Riddle me this Batman: If you chose to live in China (anyone). What language would you need to function? Would you expect the Nation to accomodate you by adding English to all there signs so you knew where to go and how to get there? Pick any country and the need for communication is there and its our responsibility to learn it especially if we claim to be freakin citizens or expect opportunity at an equal level.

Like I said before: LEARN THE DAMN LANGUAGE :D

Droop :yb:

[Slacker]

Originally posted by Malachi
The only flip side to this, would be if this immigrant lived in a mostly spanish neighborhood (like this isn't common) which had a local grocery store that had mainly spanish immigrant people employeed there. Now in this case, they are building a city/life under the umbrella of segregation. They refuse to learn the basic communication skills and choose to stick to there own.

Have you even ever been to a foriegn country? This may surprise you, but learning a new language is hard. Is the guy in my example really "refusing" to learn English, as you put it? Or does he simply not have the time or resources to do it?


Either way though I think it should be mandatory that you learn the language of America which is English. You can learn as many as you would like mind you, but English is a must.

I still haven't heard anyone explain why this is a necessity. You attempted to below - read my comments after...

If all these non-English speaking people did was ONLY interact with each other and it did not effect me or people in general directly, I could see your point. Fact is I have worked where people could not communicate with one another. These people hindered the work environment and it was a constant struggle. It wasted time and effort on simple tasks that could not be performed because they did not bring basic communication skills to the table. This does not make me better or worse than these people, but am I suppose to learn Spanish to work and function in America? I think not

Now we're getting in to a whole different situation. English is obviously a requirement for some jobs. It's not the responsibility of the government to require that everyone speaks English, it's the responsibility of your employer to hire people that can do the job.

Riddle me this Batman: If you chose to live in China (anyone). What language would you need to function? Would you expect the Nation to accomodate you by adding English to all there signs so you knew where to go and how to get there? Pick any country and the need for communication is there and its our responsibility to learn it especially if we claim to be freakin citizens or expect opportunity at an equal level.

Lol it's hilarious to me when people use China as an argument for a place where things are done right. I suppose we should kill everyone's second baby and shoot people in the street for shoplifting too? So to answer your question, no I don't expect a friendly welcome in China. I expect the United States to be a better place for everyone.

[Blindf8th]

We just disagree I suppose. You make a few decent points, but in the end I believe anyone that makes America there home and calls themselves a citizen should at some point get with the program.

If we ever meet Slacker, don't be angry with me, I LOVE YOU MAN!

Droop :mecry:

[PaleDuke]

Originally posted by Malachi
hmm, I wonder what the official language for Paris, China, and Brazil? Maybe Pale needs to follow suit and join the folks on crack in the
legalization page as well :yb:

Now technically, I cannot show you where it is written in stone. Logicially, you all know that any argument opposing this known fact is just
idiotic...

Droop <sheesh you weed smokin fools>


Brazil

Languages:

Portuguese (official), Spanish, English, French

http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/br.html



France

Languages:

French 100%, rapidly declining regional dialects and languages (Provencal, Breton, Alsatian, Corsican, Catalan, Basque, Flemish)

http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/fr.html



China

Languages:

Standard Chinese or Mandarin (Putonghua, based on the Beijing dialect), Yue (Cantonese), Wu (Shanghaiese), Minbei (Fuzhou), Minnan
(Hokkien-Taiwanese), Xiang, Gan, Hakka dialects, minority languages (see Ethnic groups entry)

http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/ch.html



USA
Languages:

English, Spanish (spoken by a sizable minority)

http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/us.html


As you can see from the CIA's World Fact Book, only Brazil has an "official" language from those countries you selected. As to your "look at China" argument, it's exposed your ignorance, as there's no such language as "Chinese" although Mandarin would be as close as one gets but even it is very regionally different.

[Blindf8th]

Pale,
Your just displaying your ignorance by avoiding the question. What language were you taught and why? When you figure this one out and can answer the question, you will indeed be getting up to speed on the topic...

Droop :knob:

[opus512]

Originally posted by Malachi
Pale,
Your just displaying your ignorance by avoiding the question. What language were you taught and why? When you figure this one out and can answer the question, you will indeed be getting up to speed on the topic...

Droop :knob:

I wasn't 'taught' a language in school, the teacher spoke a certain language, that I just happened to speak as well.

English is accepted as the dominant language in our society, nowhere is it listed as the 'official' language.

[PaleDuke]

Originally posted by Malachi
Pale,
Your just displaying your ignorance by avoiding the question. What language were you taught and why? When you figure this one out and can answer the question, you will indeed be getting up to speed on the topic...

Droop :knob:

Who's being ignorant ? I didn't see a question posed in the quoted post. If there'd been a question I would have answered it.

Now you're just grasping at straws....

[opus512]

Originally posted by sj_hurst


Maybe that's why more than 70% of assets in America are foreign owned. But hey, who cares about American pride or loyalty to your fellow Americans. They're not Americans, first and foremost anyway, so who cares? It's cool, these days, to sell out in exchange for a cozy retirement. IMO, you'll see that our day in the sun will come to an abrupt end, in the not too distant future. Oh well, it'll probably happen after I'm dead anyway, so what does it matter? (In case you don't pick up the sarcasm, read on)

Personally, I don't give a rats ass about someone's race. I'm a blended mix (akin to a mutt) of at least 4 or 5 races myself and one of them is Spanish. All humans are more than 99% DNA identical so race is beside the point. However, the future of this country is what I worry about. Is that so immoral or wrong? I favor the idea of immigrants. They're good for the economy. I'd like to think we're offering them something too (like decent educations and employment, if it's less than ideal in their homelands). What's so bad about my thinking that learning English in the U.S. is a good thing? Learning other languages is good too. If I were to live in Germany, I'd try my damndest to learn the German language. Is this a bad thing too? :confused: If someone's unable/unwilling to learn a language for whatever reason (like wanting to pass on tradition/heritage for example), I don't and won't blame them for that either.

Main Entry: bal·kan·ize
Pronunciation: 'bol-k&-"nIz
Function: transitive verb
Inflected Form(s): -ized; -iz·ing
Usage: often capitalized
Etymology: Balkan Peninsula
Date: 1919
: to break up (as a region or group) into smaller and often hostile units
- bal·kan·i·za·tion /"bol-k&-n&-'zA-sh&n/ noun, often capitalized

I think you misunderstood where I was going.

As for people selling out, sure, the rich, white CEO's of all the major corperations are the one's selling out. Why is it the foreigners fault for buying? I would blame the seller first. What about Stanely that moved off shore to avoid paying taxes? They weren't losing money. So much for 'being' an American. What about all the American companies that move their operations over sea's? Their tech support to India? Their factories to Mexico? These are all Americans, born and raised, with deep roots, lot's of old school white cream of the crop types, and they are the one's selling out. I guess I don't understand your point on that.

And I do hope you view immigrants as being good for more then just the economy. I know you probably do, it just wasen't a point you raised is all.

I would rather have 1000 non English speaking Mexicans working and paying taxes then one worthless shit of a CEO moving his company off shore to avoid taxes.

Back to the language thing. If you were an employer in a largely Spanish speaking area, wouldn't it make sense to know Spanish? Or at least hire people that can speak Spanish as well as English? Would you be 'forced' to learn Spanish, or would it just make sense?

For the record, I think people should be gently nudged into learning English if they are going to stay here. They have to show a working knowledge of it to be a citizen. Part of the problem is the high number of illegals that none of their employers turn in, as they don't have to pay them workmans comp, or insurance, or follow federal safety regulations, and the illegals won't bitch, or they get deported. Who's in the wrong, the illegals, or the largely white, English speaking employers taking advantage of them?

Ah, start the day with a good rant, heheh.

[Blindf8th]

Originally posted by PaleDuke


Who's being ignorant ? I didn't see a question posed in the quoted post. If there'd been a question I would have answered it.

Now you're just grasping at straws....


Then apparently your helplessly in need of a punctuation course. The ? means that a question was asked and it prompts for a response. Now go back and read the reply before posting such non-sense...





Opus,
:D I'm not suprised we disagree and you have stated that America has no official language. I have stated in above posts that it is not written in stone on some tablet somewhere, just understood. If you need this on pen and paper then we had better start outlining a whole lot of stuff :yb:

Droop :knob:

[PaleDuke]

Originally posted by Malachi
hmm, I wonder what the official language for Paris, China, and Brazil? Maybe Pale needs to follow suit and join the folks on crack in the legalization page as well :yb:

Now technically, I cannot show you where it is written in stone. Logicially, you all know that any argument opposing this known fact is just idiotic...

Droop <sheesh you weed smokin fools>


Originally posted by Malachi
Then apparently your helplessly in need of a punctuation course. The ? means that a question was asked and it prompts for a response. Now go back and read the reply before posting such non- sense...

:rolleyes:


You win.

[Blindf8th]

You don't need to bow down bro... You were just confusedl. We all make mistakes, I'm just glad I was here to help you see the light and the error of your thought :D

Droop <Its finally sinking in>

[Slacker]

Originally posted by PaleDuke
:rolleyes: You win.

He's asking what language were you taught and why? Of course, he asked you that after he accused you of dodging the question (it's tough dodging a question you haven't been asked). :D

Personally, I learned English from my parents. That doesn't make it the official language of the United States.

[Blindf8th]

But why were you taught? Knowone is answering this because it proves the point. You weren't taught another language here in America because its generally understood and factual that English is the language you need to be productive, fluent, and interactive in our social environment. You needed English to be taught for many reasons.

No it is not written and no its not documented. Does this mean that all things not listed in your "This is written in stone" knowledge base are not possibly in fact true. Are there things that we except and assume as fact based on logic? Ofcourse there is and this is just one of those case's.




Pale,
Somehow the quoting confused me and I did get that mixed up. However, I still know you read my reply and question although for some reason you failed to reply. So it really doesn't matter in the order at which the conversation took place, your avoiding it all at this point anyway aren't ya :yb:

Droop <Gloves are Off Punks>

[Slacker]

Originally posted by Malachi
But why were you taught? Knowone is answering this because it proves the point. You weren't taught another language here in America because its generally understood and factual that English is the language you need to be productive, fluent, and interactive in our social environment. You needed English to be taught for many reasons.

This still doesn't mean it's the official language dude.

Ask our European friends. I wasn't taught another language because Americans think they're the center of the universe. When I went to Europe almost every single person I met knew at least two languages. I can count the bilingual people (who spoke English first) that I know here in Texas on one hand. I would much rather have learned another language growing up, then learn one as an adult when it's much harder.

[Blindf8th]

So do you agree or disagree that English is the Native used language? I'm not stating that it wouldn't have been nice to have grown up learning more than one language. We didn't because as a country its just accepted that English is the standard language used.

Also, as time moves forward other languages are being used much more because they are not learning over time nor do they have a desire to learn this countries language. If you wanna call yourself an American and live here as a citizen, I believe you should speak the language of those that provide you with the Freedoms you enjoy or get the hell out.

I would never expect another country to change its ways because I happen to move there. Furthermore, these people are not learning at any decent rate if at all (ofcourse this is not all people). Proof is in the fact that every place you go and every sign you read have continually progressed towards the "Lets not offend the immigrant and make everything accomodating since they choose not to conform to the priviledges that America provides".

Droop <Your all punks> :D

[opus512]

It is the dominant language, I don't think anyone has said that it's not.

[Blindf8th]

But why is it dominent?

Droop :yb:

[opus512]

Originally posted by Malachi
But why is it dominent?

Droop :yb:

Uhm, because we're American?

Your arguing a losing point, IMO.

I was never taught English. I learned it because my parents spoke it. It is not the designated official language of the country. And in some parts of the country, it's not even the dominant language :P

[msan_msw]

Kinda nice seeing Slacker post opinions :) He's posted more opinions in the last week than since I've been at SC, lol.

[Blindf8th]

Opus,
Your right bro, because as long as we have the "lets not hurt peoples feelings" attitude, then it will continually change. Sorry bro, but you keep saying that you speak English because your parents do? Trace it back and you'll have the answer your not willing to admit...

Droop <days almost over woot>

[sj_hurst]

Originally posted by Slacker
And sj_hurst, I apologize. I felt like you were painting with kind of a broad brush, so I called you on it. I understand what you're saying though.

NP. Just so you know, I don't agree with everything said on one side or the other. I know that most Mexicans are not lazy, and most don't deal drugs. I didn't intend to criticize them in any way. In fact, I feel bad about our history with them. Yet, I've always hoped that people could put history aside and get along with each other. Ok, so they have large families, but I don't mind. I come from a large family myself. I think that has more to do with being Catholic anyway, rather than being Mexican. Afterall, my father was brought up with Catholic schooling (in San Antonio) so I should know. And if Spanish becomes the most commonly spoken language in this country, then I'd recommend for peeps spend more time learning it instead of English. It's not a rule of law to learn one language in the U.S. and it never will be. And if I had to guess, I say that forcing a language on people would be against Constitutional law. However, I was trying to point out certain advantages of learning the most common language (in the U.S.). I wasn't suggesting that it be a requirement. It's just my simple opinion/advice, and not intended as a demand or put-down. :)

[sj_hurst]

Originally posted by opus512
I would blame the seller first.

I do. I think the foreigners are smart for buying up America. I think rich white American CEO's are dumb for selling out our future. ;)

[Blindf8th]

<APPLAUDS>







Then I'll say it again for you in a more direct way. Learn the damn language :yb:

Droop <peace and good will towards men>

[opus512]

Originally posted by Malachi
Opus,
Your right bro, because as long as we have the "lets not hurt peoples feelings" attitude, then it will continually change. Sorry bro, but you keep saying that you speak English because your parents do? Trace it back and you'll have the answer your not willing to admit...

Droop <days almost over woot>

I trace it back on my Moms side and it's Cheroke. I trace it back on my Dad's side and it's Swedish.

As I said, I understand your point, just don't think it's valid is all.

[sj_hurst]

Droop,
Making it a requirement for citizenship/residency is a bit extreme. Don't you think? They don't do that in Germany. (My bro had a job offer there after he got out of the Army and he didn't speak a lick of German). I'm not aware of any countries that go as far as to make a certain language a requirement for residency.

Originally posted by opus512
I was never taught English. I learned it because my parents spoke it.

I assume you meant schools (by never taught English). Where did you go to school? Of course I didn't first learn to speak English at school either (I learned it from my parents like most of us here). But my schools certainly taught it and tried to craft the students' grasp of the English language.

[opus512]

Originally posted by sj_hurst
Droop,
Making it a requirement for citizenship/residency is a bit extreme. Don't you think? They don't do that in Germany. (My bro had a job offer there after he got out of the Army and he didn't speak a lick of German). I'm not aware of any countries that go as far as to make a certain language a requirement for residency.

I assume you meant schools (by never taught English). Where did you go to school? Of course I didn't first learn to speak English at school either (I learned it from my parents like most of us here). But my schools certainly taught it and tried to craft the students' grasp of the English language.

I was taught in English ;)

And peeople applying for citizenship have to show a basic use of English to get in.

[Blindf8th]

Then illegal aliens is a bigger problem than I previously thought...

Droop <bah>

[PaleDuke]

Originally posted by Malachi


Pale,
Somehow the quoting confused me and I did get that mixed up. However, I still know you read my reply and question although for some reason you failed to reply. So it really doesn't matter in the order at which the conversation took place, your avoiding it all at this point anyway aren't ya :yb:

Droop <Gloves are Off Punks>

Doh !

To answer your inquiry...

I was raised in English. My father is French-Canadian and only learned English after joining the navy. My mother was raised in English by choice. Her parents were also French-Canadian who learned English as their children grew. As English is the predominant language in Canada, we were brought up accordingly. Later both we kids and our parents regretted this decision. We moved to Montreal when I was 9 and none of we children could communicate with the majority of our peers who were Francophones. Most who spoke English were either new to the area (like us) or fluently bilingual. Many of these bilingual kids were Francophones who's parents sent them to English schools. I so wished we had been raised in French at home while attending English schools...as Canada has English & French as the official languages and ALL written instructions, labels, signs MUST be in both languages.

http://www.adoptanescargot.com/stop.arret.jpeg

I can see the US going this same route with regards to English & Spanish. Would it be so bad to raise people in a bilingual or even multilingual setting ? Learning a language is easy when done consistently and from a young age.

[Blindf8th]

I actually stated that bi language support is not a bad thing. However when I go to Mobil for a gas fill-up (like yesterday), it would be nice and should be expected that the cashier speaks a hint of English. This is not an attack on Spanish speaking people only. This is directed at anyone who doesn't speak any English and doesn't really care to. Learn it is all I'm saying...

Droop <are you peeps crazy?> :D

[Slacker]

Originally posted by Malachi
I actually stated that bi language support is not a bad thing. However when I go to Mobil for a gas fill-up (like yesterday), it would be nice and should be expected that the cashier speaks a hint of English. This is not an attack on Spanish speaking people only. This is directed at anyone who doesn't speak any English and doesn't really care to. Learn it is all I'm saying...

Once again, that's Mobil's responsibility, not the government's. If you don't like it, get your gas elsewhere.

[Blindf8th]

BS GET OFF MY BACK @#$%^! Your wrong, just wrong. This love all people dont offend anyone makes me sick...

Droop <talk to the hand baby> :yb:

[msan_msw]

So you're suggesting "hate all people" and "offend as many people as possible"? That's the alternative you seem to stand with.

[opus512]

I think the Droop is walking the edge :D

[1badjedi]

Originally posted by Slacker


Once again, that's Mobil's responsibility, not the government's. If you don't like it, get your gas elsewhere.


Ummmm..........mobil didnt sign that dude's citizenship papers. Whoever did should have made sure he knew the language first.

btw............again I'll state, they are coming to my country not vice versa. I dont need to know their language.

[sj_hurst]

Originally posted by 1badjedi



Ummmm..........mobil didnt sign that dude's citizenship papers. Whoever did should have made sure he knew the language first.

According to Opus, they do that. Like I said, the government (INS or whoever) doesn't enforce immigration laws. The "procedures" on the books are ignored more often than not. I'm not trying to be discriminatory by saying these things. It's simply the facts.

[opus512]

Originally posted by sj_hurst


According to Opus, they do that. Like I said, the government (INS or whoever) doesn't enforce immigration laws. The "procedures" on the books are ignored more often than not. I'm not trying to be discriminatory by saying these things. It's simply the facts.

And you come by these 'facts' how?

All I know, is that to get your citizenship papers signed, you have to have a basic understanding of the English language.

Now whether you keep learning the language after your a citizen, or forget everything you knew before you walk out the door is a different story.

[sj_hurst]

Originally posted by opus512


And you come by these 'facts' how?

All I know, is that to get your citizenship papers signed, you have to have a basic understanding of the English language.

Now whether you keep learning the language after your a citizen, or forget everything you knew before you walk out the door is a different story.

You're right, but there's a distinction between what you and I are saying. In principle and according to the law, immigrants are supposed to have a basic understanding of the English language. In practice, these principles/laws are often bypassed, for reasons that are beyond my knowledge (it's probably the government's inept incompetence if I had to guess). If I'm wrong, how do explain badjedi's gripe about gas station attendants? I too, have dealt with employees that couldn't speak English (not limited to gas stations either). Maybe you've never had an experience like that, but I have. If you want to argue that the government follows all of its immigration policies/laws, look no further than the situation with illegal immigration for contradictory evidence.

[opus512]

Originally posted by sj_hurst


You're right, but there's a distinction between what you and I are saying. In principle and according to the law, immigrants are supposed to have a basic understanding of the English language. In practice, these principles/laws are often bypassed, for reasons that are beyond my knowledge (it's probably the government's inept incompetence if I had to guess). If I'm wrong, how do explain badjedi's gripe about gas station attendants? I too, have dealt with employees that couldn't speak English (not limited to gas stations either). Maybe you've never had an experience like that, but I have. If you want to argue that the government follows all of its immigration policies/laws, look no further than the situation with illegal immigration for contradictory evidence.

Go out to Boulder and they have their fair share of Mexicans that do not speak English for shit. But most of the business's that employee them take the time to help them learn English.

I understand that not all do, but the good one's do. The Residence Inn I worked at, the entire maitenance and housekeeping staff were Mexican, except for the managers, heh.

But they all had a working knowledge of English, not necesarily carry on a conversation, but they could point where to go or go ask someone.

I understand your point, I just was taken aback I guess on your flat statement that "...the government (INS or whoever) doesn't enforce immigration laws. The "procedures" on the books are ignored more often than not. I'm not trying to be discriminatory by saying these things. It's simply the facts."

That just seemed pretty over reaching, IMO. I'm sure that not 'all' laws are enforced 'all' the time, for no other reason then people are people and people screw shit up and can be lazy, but to make what seemed to be a blanket statement seemed to broad for me.

[sj_hurst]

I'm saying that the (INS) system is full of cracks. I get notions like that when I see things on the news (Hatian refugees, etc) and when I see so many illegal immigrants in the U.S. I don't blame the immigrants of course (I'd be doing the same if I were in their shoes). But in my mind, these things appear to be facts. It's your opinion if you think that the system works as it should.

It doesn't seem right to target (or have a policy of targeting) Hatian refugees and let the others in (like Cubans and Mexicans). I thought race and/or nationality doesn't matter. IMO, it shouldn't. All should have equal opportunities to become U.S. citizens (or even equal opportunity to be illegal immigrants, without threat of deportation, as the system frequently allows). I don't agree with having illegal immigrants per say (they should be citizens if they're allowed to stay here), but I believe in equal opportunities.
http://www.refugees.org/world/articles/RR_April_2002_INS.cfm

[1badjedi]

Originally posted by opus512


All I know, is that to get your citizenship papers signed, you have to have a basic understanding of the English language.




Personally, I think they do it jes to be annoyin. All of a sudden it's "No Habla." :rolleyes:

[opus512]

Originally posted by sj_hurst
I'm saying that the (INS) system is full of cracks. I get notions like that when I see things on the news (Hatian refugees, etc) and when I see so many illegal immigrants in the U.S. I don't blame the immigrants of course (I'd be doing the same if I were in their shoes). But in my mind, these things appear to be facts. It's your opinion if you think that the system works as it should.

It doesn't seem right to target (or have a policy of targeting) Hatian refugees and let the others in (like Cubans and Mexicans). I thought race and/or nationality doesn't matter. IMO, it shouldn't. All should have equal opportunities to become U.S. citizens (or even equal opportunity to be illegal immigrants, without threat of deportation, as the system frequently allows). I don't agree with having illegal immigrants per say (they should be citizens if they're allowed to stay here), but I believe in equal opportunities.
http://www.refugees.org/world/articles/RR_April_2002_INS.cfm

Saying the system has cracks and saying people rutinely blow off the rules is two different things :yb: :P

I agree there are cracks.

The INS needs to be split up, and was going to be untill 9/11 and Jr's push for Emprorship.

The problem with the INS is that it was too small to be doing two things at once, paperwork and enforcement.

As for deportation, race doesn't count, but nationality does. We usually only provide political asylum, not blanket imigration.

[opus512]

Originally posted by 1badjedi



Personally, I think they do it jes to be annoyin. All of a sudden it's "No Habla." :rolleyes:

Yeah, but sometimes I think that I would, too ;) :D

[sj_hurst]

Originally posted by opus512


Saying the system has cracks and saying people rutinely blow off the rules is two different things :yb: :P

I agree there are cracks.

The INS needs to be split up, and was going to be untill 9/11 and Jr's push for Emprorship.

The problem with the INS is that it was too small to be doing two things at once, paperwork and enforcement.

As for deportation, race doesn't count, but nationality does. We usually only provide political asylum, not blanket imigration.

I don't know about that. Someone made a decision to let that Malvo (a beltway sniper suspect) go, by ignoring the current immigration laws in the process. Same's true for many of the 9/11 attackers/terrorists. That's a flaw in the system and someone's mistake at the same time, IMO.

[opus512]

Originally posted by sj_hurst


I don't know about that. Someone made a decision to let that Malvo (a beltway sniper suspect) go, by ignoring the current immigration laws in the process. Same's true for many of the 9/11 attackers/terrorists. That's a flaw in the system and someone's mistake at the same time, IMO.

Oh I agree, the system is too huge and bloated, red tape everywhere, whcih leads to frustration and people bypassing regulations that frustrate them.

I had hopes for INS reform before 9/11, now it's all tied up into Jr's Homeland Defense department bullshit. You think we got convaluted mess now, baby, wait untill you see the biggest consolidation of federal bureaucracy since, uhm, evah! :D

[sj_hurst]

Actually, the Senate refuses to pass Bush's homeland defense proposal. Consolidation hasn't occurred at all on that issue. If Republicans gain control of the Senate and maintain control of the House, perhaps... but for now, that's speculation. Personally, I think that the Democrats have a good chance of keeping their control of the Senate.

[opus512]

Originally posted by sj_hurst
Actually, the Senate refuses to pass Bush's homeland defense proposal. Consolidation hasn't occurred at all on that issue. If Republicans gain control of the Senate and maintain control of the House, perhaps... but for now, that's speculation. Personally, I think that the Democrats have a good chance of keeping their control of the Senate.

I do, too, I don't see the Republicans doing anything substantial.

But the Homland Defense bill will get passed, it's just a matter of a couple sticking points.

They shouldn't be voting on shit like this, or like Iraq, right before this important of an election anyway.

Soon as it's over, one side or the other will compromise on the new departments workers being able to unionize or not, and that's the only real sticking point.

[sj_hurst]

Opus,
I agree with your last post, probably only as long you don't add or subtract anything from it. lol

[1badjedi]

Originally posted by opus512


Yeah, but sometimes I think that I would, too ;) :D



:yb: :P :D