This is such BS....

[GrimFaceOfReality]

Game makers under attack (http://www.denverpost.com/Stories/0,1002,11%257E24990,00.html)


Saturday, April 21, 2001 - Just hours after many Columbine victims settled legal claims against the parents of the shooters, two other families sent strong messages to the violence-filled media that they say made Eric Harris and Dylan Klebold more willing and efficient killers.
Linda Sanders, wife of slain teacher Dave Sanders, and two of his stepdaughters filed a multibillion-dollar, class-action lawsuit Thursday against 25 media companies, most of which manufacture or distribute video games.

And on Friday, the family of injured student Evan Todd had their lawyer fire off a letter to the co-creator of the game "Doom" - a favorite of Harris and Klebold - asking that he stop selling adult games to kids.

The Sanders' suit, filed hours before a two-year statute of limitations expired, claims that if not for violent games and other media images - in particular, a school massacre scene from the movie "The Basketball Diaries" - the rampage by Harris and Klebold wouldn't have happened.

The suit asks for $5 billion in damages, plus damages of $5,000 to $10 million for individual parties in the class action.

"But money may be the smallest part of the goal," said John DeCamp, the Sanders' Nebraska-based attorney. "This is a class action that says that, ultimately, money ain't gonna do it."

The suit contends that the $20-billion-a-year video game industry will not effectively regulate itself, and that court intervention is necessary to keep violent games out of the hands of minors.

Without those controls, "it is guaranteed that more monsters will be created and more school killings will occur," according to the lawsuit.

"Generally, I'm 100 percent on the side of the First Amendment, so I find myself in a strange position here," DeCamp said. "However, the (entertainment industry) establish their own rules that these are dangerous for children, and yet had a systematic program to make sure that's exactly who they marketed to at an early age."

The Sanders family declined to comment on the filing.

The public relations firm representing Nintendo of America, one of the defendants, had no immediate comment.

The suit closely resembles a federal action filed against dozens of entertainment companies after the Paducah, Ky., school shooting in which 14-year-old Michael Carneal shot eight classmates, killing three, in 1997.

Florida attorney Jack Thompson helped file that lawsuit, which was dismissed but is being appealed.

Thompson said Columbine victims might have an even better case, and called the suicidal rampage "the Pearl Harbor of America's culture war."

On Friday, Thompson made public a letter he has sent to John Carmack, one of the original "Doom" creators and founder of Texas-based id Software, on behalf of the Todd family.

He called on Carmack to prohibit the sale and distribution of all video games rated for mature audiences to children under 17 - and to do it by April 30. The letter did not specifically threaten a lawsuit, but the statute of limitations for Evan Todd won't expire until he turns 18 in June.

Carmack couldn't be reached for comment.

Dale Todd, Evan's father, said he hooked up with Thompson through research he did on violent video games. He even obtained a copy of "Doom" and played it himself. He was appalled.

Then he asked Thompson to write Carmack a letter, "just to let him know we're on his trail." Although he doubts the software icon will change his ways, Todd said he may consider other options.

"We need to wake up," Todd said. "These kids don't need to be playing violent games. But corporations don't have social consciences. You have to force them through economics."


My faivorite line:

"He called on Carmack to prohibit the sale and distribution of all video games rated for mature audiences to children under 17 - and to do it by April 30. The letter did not specifically threaten a lawsuit, but the statute of limitations for Evan Todd won't expire until he turns 18 in June. "

OMFG... Who does he think Carmack is, the supreme tyrant of the Milky Way?

[AMD-Tech]

(see my reply to this exact topic in the OT board)

[dookiebot]

Made them more effiecient killers? They played Doom for crying out loud. You couldn't look up or down (if I remember correctly) you couldn't aim. You just ran a shot.

Wow!

[ 04-23-2001: Message edited by: dookiebot ]

[Pretty Hate Machine]

Yeah, tell me about it...I replied to this topic on OT also.

Dookiebot made a good point (again, on OT) about checking out that family's Blockbuster rental history ~ you'd have to go there and read it, I can't be arsed to copy'n'paste :p

[ 04-23-2001: Message edited by: Pretty Hate Machine ]

[Angel]

I believe the game makers hold some responsibility, but not to the tune of $5 billion.

Years ago the late Frank Zappa made the persuasive argument against censorship of the recoding industry thus: if violent (songs, video games, movies etc) are so dangerous so as to cause a handful of kids to kill, what about the corresponding thousands, even millions of other kids who are exposed to, and are fans of, such media and don't kill; and otherwise grow up to be responsible adults?

The same argument was made against the Beatles, Elvis Presley...even as far back as the burning of the Great Library of Alexandria, calling them evil, corrupting influences on the youth.

It's rather sad, seeing this latest attempt to lay blame at the feet of the media, when what people should do is to look inside and ask themselves how they failed to be there for those kids when they needed help. Unless this is done there will be no end to the murders and the suicides.

:(

[ 04-23-2001: Message edited by: Angel ]

[ATMArage]

Here's what I have to say about censorship: http://kmfdm.prey.net/video/skinny-puppy-worlock.asf
(Sorry guys, I'm obsessed) :D

[I-AM-A-GAMER]

There is a blame pie.

And a lot of slices in it.

[ 04-23-2001: Message edited by: I-AM-A-GAMER ]

[TsR-RareAir23]

I guess now it's time to run my take on this rather sensitive, very controversial issue. First of all, I've been a player of many of the games blamed for the Columbine shootings since the beginning with Wolfenstein 3D. I've logged many hours in with every FPS I've ever owned. The games themselves have never changed me nor desensitized me toward the extreme acts of violence seen in the game (for the most part, the Looney Tunes featuring the Roadrunner and Wile E. Coyote did that for me). As far as I'm concerned, these games have the same amount of desensitizing capability on a child as living in an urban area where violence of all kinds are commonplace does!

When I began to play these FPS' it wasn't for the violent content in the first place each of the FPS' I've played have had a storyline and plot (no matter how shallow or deep) to justify the actions of destruction you take in the game, from offing the many Nazi's in Wolfenstein 3D to wiping out an aggressive military alien race bent on wiping out Earth in Quake II!

The placing of blame on FPS' for kids violence in my opinion is ludicrous and illogical. Except for Harris, Klebold (DOOM helped the inspiration of the shooting) and some teen in SoCal who wrote up a hitlist and got caught (the game Hitman: Codename 47 was the lone reason and inspiration for the hitlist written) the U.S. Government has no logical basis to place blame on the entire genre (not to mention Carmegeddon 1 and 2 and Grand Theft Auto 1 and 2). This is because a. very few games in the genre have been confirmed to have inspired and had involvement in the shooting and b. they're "judging books by their covers and screenshots". The only way for the government IMHO to even have the right to place blame on the FPS genre is if they interrogated all participants of every high school shooting executed in the last 7-10 years (since these are the shootings getting all the attention) and determine from their answers how many different violent PC/console games had anything to do with their crimes. From that point those games determined to have been involved can be blamed. Until then, the government and victims of the various high school shootings have no damning evidence to base their lawsuits and blame lists on. They are all acting on basic assumption and a wise man once told me "Assumption is the greatest of all f---ups!". That is all. Out!

[Sharkfood]

Without those controls, "it is guaranteed that more monsters will be created and more school killings will occur," according to the lawsuit.

Wow, look how foolish the military, terrorist groups and other establishments have been all these years!

Much to my astonishment, a few parents of teenagers have it all figured out- something so apparent and obvious that it's baffling.

Instead of sticking millions into training, research and squad tactics- the military could simply plop their elite killing forces in front of a game of "Doom." Think of the savings! A few hours of playing Doom and they'll be instantly transformed into brutal and efficient killers! We can save BILLIONS in military training from this amazing discovery!

All exports of "Doom" should be promptly halted. I mean, heck, what if Sadam Hussein and his Elite Guard started setting up 386 machines and playing Doom? We'd NEVER get Kuwait back if his soldiers simply had the superior killing training found in "Doom." Other 3rd world and terrorist organizations should be thwarted from EVER playing "Doom" before it's too late. We could be on the verge of a major terrorist catastrophe... and all from the insight and brilliance of a few parents of teenagers in Columbine. Wow, just think about it!

We'll dismiss the fact that the parents involved lacked the insight or knowledge their own children were constructing explosives, writing journals and notifying friends of their plans, obtaining and collecting auto and sub-auto weapons without their even noticing it, etc.etc. Their insight and obvious intelligence is somehow limited ONLY to cause-effect relationships in post analysis only, obviously.

--------------------------------------------

On a more serious note, ESRB and other ratings systems are generally COMMERCE driven, not CIVIL driven. Just like the past attempts at regulating the internet... it has NOTHING to do with obstructing access for younger crowds. It's about higher profits for access to the correct/older crowds. (Just look at Television.. now it's $29 a month to get "restricted" channels. For years, rated-R movies were on standard cable.. scramblers were the result. Internet regulation was the same scam- authentication method in use for restriction was "Credit Card", etc.etc.)

Dont let the BS stack too high. The driving forces, financing and the like are all achieved by lobby.. and all derrive from financial/commerce means masquerading behind a civil front. So when confusing BS like this emerges, dig deeper and try to realize the true commerce/lobbying reasons behind such drives.

Cheers,
-Shark

[Ailuros]

Sharkfood,

I know this rating stuff is a bit on the childish side :) ,but in all honesty if there was a 10* rating you would be the one that would deserve it beyond any doubt.

I'll have to settle with 5 I guess.... ;)

[Kermit]

Let me just say this.


How many copies of these types of games are sold?

Ok...

now, how many of the people who buy these games, INCLUDING minors are out shooting things up?

Exactly my point. Millions of copies of these games are sold, and that dosen't count how many of these are bootleged.

So, what's the difference? I will tell you. The rest of secioity KNOWS it's just a game. Designed for whatever reason.. entertainment, stress relief, whatever... but it's just a game. If I shoot someone in a videogame, it's not real, no one gets hurt... except maybe some egos. But honestly now... you cannot blame videogames for this sort of thing. And why are they saying the game makers should make sure minors don't get it? Let me ask you this... where are the parents the whole time the kids are playing these games? Yea... obviously not giving a da*& about what their kids are doing.

Ultimately, what it comes down to is how these kids were raised. They obviously have a problem telling the difference between right and wrong. I mean, all of us from time to time get that rage inside us, the kind of anger that would make us want to hurt someone, even kill someone... the difference is, most of us are stong enough and smart enough to be able to control that evil feeling that is in all of us. For those who cannot contol that feeling, then, yes, I can see these types of games being as a fuel to the fire. But quite frankly, the fire has to be there first. If you pour gas on the ground, nothing happens. IF you pour gas on a fire, it just serves to make it bigger. So ultimatly, it's how these kids were BEFORE hand. Maybe the games helped, but they are not at all the cause.

I still say, the parents are ultimately responsible for the way they raise their children. If they decide that they are going to let TV, or movies, or Videogames, or schools raise their kids, instead of raising them themselves, then they can blame no one but themselves for the way their child turnes out. I think we need to go back to some good old whoopins behind the tool shed. Just look at the generations that were still spanked as disipline, and compare them to todays disipline. Now you tell me, which generation was better behaved, which generation is out shooting up schools? See, disipline is the most imporant. I was spanked as a child. And no, I did not turn out to be an abusive adult. Actually, I was a 4.0 student in Highschool. I graduated a year early. I now have a good job, and a good family. I have never been arrested, and have never been involved in drugs. Now compare that to some of the children you see today who you KNOW were never disiplined... And you tell me, is disipline a bad thing? I think not!

All I am trying to say is, these parents are not wanting to take responsibility for thier actions and are blaming everything on someone else. And as for the parents of the victims who are suing the gaming industry... Come on. I know they suffered a huge loss, but how are they responsible? They are just looking for a way to make some easy money. It's a pitty they are using the death of their children for profit. That is just sad....

[scottg26]

yes "DOOM" is the ultimate training for elite killers.

Imagine, running over bullets to instantly reload your shotgun, firing with no force, while zombies and IMPS shoot stuff at you, then running over a medkit to instantly heal yourself!

then firing off that all too realistic BFG 9000

this debate makes me sick.

"Dale Todd, Evan's father, said he hooked up with Thompson through research he did on violent video games. He even obtained a copy of "Doom" and played it himself. He was appalled. "

I couldn't give a $h!t if he was appalled. If he doesn't like it, don't let your kids play it and don't look at it yourself!

Now im off to play Black and White....

[scottg26]

also in DOOM, u can't aim, u can't look up and down, u don't have to pick up a gun, reload it, shoot it (properly) feel the recoil, etc etc etc

And why do they keep attacking DOOM? it is so pixelated and ugly that it looks about as realistsic as a dead fish lying on the road eating chocolate!

[White_Rooque]

I can see the kids now hanging out in front of the video store:

Psst..hey mister can you buy a copy of Dark Blade for me?...

[jeepers]

Once again, society tries to find a scapegoat for a these kids that were just sick in the head to begin with!

I'm so tired of reading about these frivilous lawsuits where the victims go after the corporations with the deepest pockets instead of, in this case, the parents that SPAWNED these freaks to begin with.

So it's up to carmack, and not these kids parents, to monitor what they buy? GMAB!

Maybe if parents nowadays would start ACTING like parents instead of trying to be their kid's best buddies we wouldn't have this problem, no?

Let's see, if the kids were wearing Reeboks when this shooting happened, shouldn't the "vitims" sue that shoe company, claiming it, too, somehow systematecally turned these kids into monsters?

Violent crimes were going on in the days of PONG. Don't recall anyone suing the maker of THAT for jacking up one's propensity towards violence!!!

Remember, no money in the world will replace the lives of these lost lives, but try and tell that to these greedy, blood-sucking attorneys who only (cha-ching) can see dollar signs and don't give a rat's rump about the victim's families.

[dryass]

doom? doom?! i used to play that game when i was like 10...

not only that, but that game vilence isnt nearly enough as quake3, or quake1, or even CS.

i can see them blaming those games, but. doom? good god, HOW long have they kept blaming that game? since it came out?

gimme a ****ing break.

[opus512]

Violent games do play a part, as do violent tv shows, movies, records, news, world events, and everything else that slowly desensitizes people against things.

Did DOOM cuase them to do it? Hell no, that's stupid. But, you do learn hand/eye coordination with playing games, and that can come in pretty handy shooting things on the move. Hey, it's a fact. It's simply physical reality. But that still doesn't lay the blame on Carmack.

I lived in Boulder when this sh*t happened. It was nasty. I don't mean the act itself, though of course it was, too, but the aftermath. The finger pointing. Tyhe animosity was frightening.

There was a church group from the area, can't remember where. But they went up to a hill and planted cross's, one for every child that died. Yes, even the two tweenkies. No names were written on them. No concesion was printed anywhere. No markings what so ever. Just the simple cross's to signify the loss of life. The parents, probably the same fruits suing everyone now, went up and hacked them all down with axes and sh*t. They phisycly threatened the Priest. They shoved the church people around, threatening them, being mentaly and verbaly abusive.

Sad.

The saddest part of it all was the balme in the school systems themselves. No one got it. Any one that even remotly sympathized, and even that word is too strong, just some kid saying yeah, I can see why they went off after being treated like sh*t in school, was so completely ostracized.

No one got the point! No one understood. There are underlying causes to things, and they are usualy more complicated then stupid laws that come out and get shoved through after the anguish of something like this. WTF did a "zero tolerance" rule in school for weapons do to stop Columbine? Not a f*cking thing.

What we could have hoped for was some public discussion on maybe, just maybe it does matter how you treat other people.

But no, we get more lawsuits instead. Instead of dialogue, we get demagogue.

Sad.

[Santiago Rex]

I think we are FINALLY starting to see that Opus. With the last few school shootings, people didn't blame guns, they didn't blame movies or video games, nope. Instead the media has started focussing on the teasing and straight out harrassment that goes on in schools these days as a major contributor to these incidents.

Unfortunately, you can't sue yourself as a cause of the incident. But you can sue the billion dollar companies.

I guess some people are influenced by the movies...."SHOW ME THE MONEY!"

[opus512]

I guess some people are influenced by the movies...."SHOW ME THE MONEY!"[/B]

We kill people around here for worse puns then that :D

Oh! Just trying to lighten the mood :)

Nice where from in your profile, SR, I like that heheh :)

[ 04-23-2001: Message edited by: opus512 ]

[TOXCaturi]

gotta agree with Rex here ,seems anymore that people have forgotten how to treat oneanother with simple respect,,,a little really goes a long way........ :)

[msan_msw]

Originally posted by TOXCaturi:
gotta agree with Rex here ,seems anymore that people have forgotten how to treat oneanother with simple respect,,,a little really goes a long way........ :)


True, true...

[AchtBit]

really stupid to think something would change if thoses games are indicaded for 18+.
i think those peoples didn't and won't ever open there mind for reality.

does anybody think ,the arab , who blew up himself and the peoples close by, did play doom?
that's only a little example from the big reality.

(imyo)one big reason for violence comes from the lack of tolerance and from exact such peoples, who want to press their opinions into rules.
actually, they are responsible for the violence without seeing it.

that sounds maybe a bit crass but it's basicly the truth.

so blow em' up. :D :D

[DUKE HARDKNOCK]

This is a bit of a modern-day equivalent of witch-hunting, in my opinion. The masses are too ignorant to see - or unwilling to acknowledge - the true cause of mishaps, so they blame whatever or whoever seems to be remotely connected to them. Anything as long as long as the blame isn't put on them, just like Kermit and opus said.

Anyway, this is just like the very original Mortal Kombat and DOOM debates all over again. Many parents are terrified that these games will have a bad influence on the behaviour of their children - and to be honest, I can't really blame them. I'm not sure if I'd be very happy if my 6 or 7-year old son would play such games. It's a fair indication that something isn't quite right when kids start re-enacting (and not just in a 'fake' manner) episodes of Power Rangers or even Jerry Springer. In the end, though, the parents should take the time and care to regulate what their children watch.

However, we're talking about teenagers here, and everyone knows from personal experience how bloody rotten those years are. It certainly doesn't help that in some areas kids are confronted with real-life violence on a near-daily basis (even at school, mind). Add to that the aforementioned pestering that goes as far as blackmail and mistreatment, and it's no wonder some teenagers snap.

I don't believe that games alone make people more aggressive. However, the media as a whole may contribute to numbing us with regards to violence. Unless it has any direct effect on us, our relatives or friends, I think most people have a bit of a laissez-faire attitude. How many of us are still shocked every time we see footage of whatever current war is being waged? And after a week of playing SoF, hasn't the novelty of the bloody deaths worn off, leaving us with a sense of indifference whenever we blow someone's virtual brains out or blast another's testicles into oblivion?

What I find intriguing is that nobody ever mentions games such as Civilization. "What's wrong with that, then? No blood there." I hear you think. But that's just it - everyone only sees the direct killing and gore and goes mad about it harming our offspring. And indeed, how large is the percentage of particularly violent kids who play (and are inspired by) computer games? Isn't it slightly more worrying when you play a 'cultured' game like Civilization and decide to eradicate all other races/cultures because you can't be bothered to do it the diplomatic (or 'harder') way? I wonder what everyone would have to say about the god-/management genre when someone mentions this. If we don't turn into mindless killers, surely we'll all become young Hitlers?


Just noticed I've got two votes - hurray! Thanks guys! :)


[ 04-24-2001: Message edited by: Blidd ]

[Cop]

I only have this to say: DOOM for crying out loud! What computer systems did these guys have that they're still playing Doom?

We may be glad the parents/lawyers haven't heard/seen of the game called SoF, ey...

[Huber]

how can it be the game companies fault? ill tell you whos fault it is, its the distributers that actually sell the games. i work for media play and we sell anything to anyone. games with mature ratings are not supposed to be sold to minors. there is a very good rating system in place all ready but if retalers dont follow it then i think the blame lies on them.

[AMD-Tech]

I agree there Huber, part of the blame does lie with the retailers. Case in point:

Last week I was at the local EB with my cousin, (who is 11) and he preceded to purchase Kingpin. Yes, Kingpin, with the "M" ESRB rating and the Explicit Content label and that HUGE yellow "FOR MATURE AUDIENCES ONLY, VIOLENT SUBJECT MATTER" sticker on the box. They sold it to him without a problem; he told me later they even went so far as to say what a good choice it was. And he did not have his parents or anybody there but me, and I wasn't even in the store (I saw through the windows).

I rest my case.

[ 04-24-2001: Message edited by: AMD-Tech ]

[AMD-Tech]

^bump^