NV Forces Omega from Making Omega Drivers

[jaymind]

Pulled from DH (Zardon):

Alot has been going on behind the scenes recently guys with Nvidia regarding Omegas drivers and it looks like Omega might be forced to stop making them. This is due to Nvidia hard handed tactics and not wanting anyone to alter or touch their driver code in any way. Omega has even had to remove Nvidia logos from his site or legal action will be taken. This could possibly if taken further close these sites, so we really have no option.

Im sorry for the bad news, but unfortunately it looks like Nvidia Omega drivers will no longer be developed.

ATI's Response:
I just had a chat with Terry over in Kentucky, he is at the Million Man Lan event. And I was asking him about any concerns he may have about Omegas drivers. He wanted to get this out in the open.

Terry: " We are very pleased that gaming enthusiasts are interested in CATALYST and ATI product. We appreciate the efforts that Omega puts into providing alternatives to hardware enthusiasts. As such, Omega is one of the original members of the CATALYST beta testing program, and recently we have worked with him to help him provide Omega drivers on the same day as CATALYST's get posted. Although CATALYST is fully tested and fully supported by ATI, I dont feel that enthusiasts (that understand the risks involved) having an alternative to CATALYST is a bad thing. Thanks for the support to the ATI community Omega!"

Driverheaven is working very closely with ATI in making sure you guys get the best support and drivers on the net.

I won't blast this thread with my opinions to much...but, I have used Omega's NV drivers for a while now and have always found them to be of higher quality than NV's stock drivers. Hell, I've used Omega's drivers since my V3 was in my old box.

I just don't get this by NV. This is something MS would pull. Omega NV drivers don't hurt anything or anyone, they just provide another option for us end-users who appreciate his work. He provides some quality drivers, albet they are just tweaked drivers that anyone could do with a large understanding if Rivatuner or Reg tweaks, but some of us really liked the increase in quality he provided.

Definetly underhanded by NV. I think that they are forgetting that is is gamers who are their customers and hard-core gamers like this stuff.

[WedgieMan]

hmm, I've never heard of them. Anyone else have experience with these drivers?

It's a shame the people at NV are being asses about it.

[opus512]

Originally posted by jaymind


I just don't get this by NV. This is something MS would pull.

Therein lies your answer.

[Bah!]

He does good work. I have used his drivers going back to my Voodoo days. I dont see how he is a problem for Nvidia really..who knows what they are thinking.

I will say the difference between Omegas NV drivers and the stock drivers is pretty minimal though. If he does get forced to stop i dont see this as a huge blow to NV users.

During the x3dfx days his drivers were the best bar none.

[jaymind]

Originally posted by Bah!
He does good work. I have used his drivers going back to my Voodoo days. I dont see how he is a problem for Nvidia really..who knows what they are thinking.

I will say the difference between Omegas NV drivers and the stock drivers is pretty minimal though. If he does get forced to stop i dont see this as a huge blow to NV users.

During the x3dfx days his drivers were the best bar none.

I don't see this as a huge blow to NV user either, but it just seems petty to me. Are they going to go after Unwinder next and Rivatuner to shut him down? I can understand NV wanting to keep their drivers proprietary, but he wasn't rewritting code or reverse engineering the drivers by any means. They're just tweaks for the most part. Like I said, I can somewhat see NV's side, but anything that makes users of your products happy can't be a bad thing. I just think that they are forgetting who their customers are.

[Jack_Tripper]

/crazy ass jack conspiracy theory mode

I think NV is desperate to hide something...maybe not in this run of cards...but maybe something coming up! It seems like a wierd time for them to come in and kind of arbitrarily stop everything!!!

/end crazy ass jack consipiracy theory mode

Jack

[SirPauly]

After all this fuss with their drivers and finding all these cheats/specific application optimizations, this could be a major reason as well, imho. nVidia doesn't want anyone fooling with their drivers, imho.

[Prime]

Originally posted by Jack_Tripper
/crazy ass jack conspiracy theory mode

I think NV is desperate to hide something...maybe not in this run of cards...but maybe something coming up! It seems like a wierd time for them to come in and kind of arbitrarily stop everything!!!

/end crazy ass jack consipiracy theory mode

Jack

Actually, that was my first thought. They've not minded his modded drivers for quite a while now, but all of the sudden it's a no-no. Makes one wonder...

However, until I hear some details on this incident, I'm going to take it all with a pretty standard sized grain of salt.

[Simian]

All the guy does is mix and match driver files from new and old sets, and makes some slight INF modifications. Bad timing on NV's part considering all the other bad PR they have been getting (driver cheats, 5800 cooling system, etc).

[EvilEngine]

Ok now NV is heading into areas that will really force them to lose dedicated customers. Not that I liked OMEGA drivers(they are the same exact drivers with extremely low lodbias settings) but the idea that Nvidia doesnt want anyone to modify the driver settings for better quality. Now if they(nvidia) starts forcing Unwinder or any other tweaker maker to stop any further development for the tweaks they have, then NV has done lost thier head for good.
I applaud ATI for standing up and showing their appreciation to people like Omega. Now if Nvidia is simply pissed becuase Omega is going around saying he "created" the drivers and all he did is lower the lodbias, then I understand the situation clearly.
I have a feeling Unwinder is already feeling some heat, and is getting frustrated from having to change the Rivatuner code every release becuase the drivers internal code changes every leak/official version.

[Apoch003]

Omega has never claimed to write the code. There's even a disclaimer on his site which says so. And it's always been posted there.


Maybe Nvidia is going to start charging people for driver updates? :P

[Jack_Tripper]

Scary thing is that wouldn't be all that shocking :fro:

Jack

[opus512]

I think nVidia's marketing/legal departments get together for meetings and ask each other "What would Microsoft do in this case?"

Either that, or the head of nVidia has a major Gates jones going on.

[Mole]

I've never liked how that Vietnamese guy that's head of Nvidia looks... He looks like he'd fuck someone in the ass just to degrade them.:ugh:

[Sharkfood]

There is, and always has been, a number of support issues concerning folks that have used Omega's drivers.

In the past, he basically and simply re-bundles existing drivers and modifies INF's or mix/matches components and registry settings to create a working set that will usually benefit people with a list of shared or common games.

Let's face it- the support level target for ATI's drivers and the true, support level of 90% of ATI's hardware owners is vastly different. While ATI has to accomodate the 4 or 5 people that need VESA/VGA support, the 100 people that use pre-4.0 3dsmax and a few other rare birds out there- Omega simply caters driver revisions and settings to offer the best IQ/performance through non-control panel visible registry and inf settings for your average joe-blow gamer (i.e. someone with XP, that plays UT2003, BF1942, a few racings games, etc.etc.).

The problems arise when a particular tweak/setting or driver component mis-match doesn't uninstall or reset upon installing normal IHV drivers. For example, if you fire up regedit and add some new keys not found in the control panel, after uninstalling and re-installing true-blue ATI drivers, those registry keys are still in the registry and all future driver installs will have those settings. If those particular settings are responsible for game issues or other inconsistencies down the road, it opens a support headache for ATI or NVIDIA as they have folks submitting problems that they cannot reproduce (i.e. normal install of the ATI only drivers and the issue just isnt happening).

So from this point, I can almost understand NVIDIA's stance on this issue. Most people would simply state- you use 3rd party drivers, you lose support.. but one look at Rage3D's forums and you will see this isn't the case. It's FILLED with 1000's of posts from people that can't even get 3dmark03 to launch correctly, or have artifacting in games/titles that have no such issues. Most all of them have either downloaded and installed "tweak" programs or used 3rd party drivers (including Omega's).. and by magically formatting their system and installing just the pure Catalyst drivers, the problem goes away... but that doesn't stop them from posting "ATI SUXORZ!" posts for months before they realize their actions are what caused their issue.

That's why in the interview it made the exception of -
"I dont feel that enthusiasts (that understand the risks involved) having an alternative to CATALYST is a bad thing."

If people understand the risks, then more power to them. People like Omega can continue to provide custom tailored 3rd party drivers that will offer good value to *enthusiasts*- it's the accumulation of complete and utter morons/buffoons that ruin this for everyone else, and which is why NVIDIA is likely trying to lose this headache for themselves.

[Edit- I should also mention the HUGE list of people that can't even get a single OpenGL game to launch/run with the Catalyst 3.5's. There is nothing wrong with the 3.5's. The issue is SPECIFICALLY a 3rd party driver issue causing this. In the meantime, people are blacklisting the 3.5's because of a few morons that downloaded crap, installed crap and are now broken from their own ignorance and lack of technical know-how to isolate and fix their OWN problem.]

[Apoch003]

Originally posted by Sharkfood
There is, and always has been, a number of support issues concerning folks that have used Omega's drivers.

In the past, he basically and simply re-bundles existing drivers and modifies INF's or mix/matches components and registry settings to create a working set that will usually benefit people with a list of shared or common games.

Let's face it- the support level target for ATI's drivers and the true, support level of 90% of ATI's hardware owners is vastly different. While ATI has to accomodate the 4 or 5 people that need VESA/VGA support, the 100 people that use pre-4.0 3dsmax and a few other rare birds out there- Omega simply caters driver revisions and settings to offer the best IQ/performance through non-control panel visible registry and inf settings for your average joe-blow gamer (i.e. someone with XP, that plays UT2003, BF1942, a few racings games, etc.etc.).

The problems arise when a particular tweak/setting or driver component mis-match doesn't uninstall or reset upon installing normal IHV drivers. For example, if you fire up regedit and add some new keys not found in the control panel, after uninstalling and re-installing true-blue ATI drivers, those registry keys are still in the registry and all future driver installs will have those settings. If those particular settings are responsible for game issues or other inconsistencies down the road, it opens a support headache for ATI or NVIDIA as they have folks submitting problems that they cannot reproduce (i.e. normal install of the ATI only drivers and the issue just isnt happening).

So from this point, I can almost understand NVIDIA's stance on this issue. Most people would simply state- you use 3rd party drivers, you lose support.. but one look at Rage3D's forums and you will see this isn't the case. It's FILLED with 1000's of posts from people that can't even get 3dmark03 to launch correctly, or have artifacting in games/titles that have no such issues. Most all of them have either downloaded and installed "tweak" programs or used 3rd party drivers (including Omega's).. and by magically formatting their system and installing just the pure Catalyst drivers, the problem goes away... but that doesn't stop them from posting "ATI SUXORZ!" posts for months before they realize their actions are what caused their issue.

That's why in the interview it made the exception of -
"I dont feel that enthusiasts (that understand the risks involved) having an alternative to CATALYST is a bad thing."

If people understand the risks, then more power to them. People like Omega can continue to provide custom tailored 3rd party drivers that will offer good value to *enthusiasts*- it's the accumulation of complete and utter morons/buffoons that ruin this for everyone else, and which is why NVIDIA is likely trying to lose this headache for themselves.

[Edit- I should also mention the HUGE list of people that can't even get a single OpenGL game to launch/run with the Catalyst 3.5's. There is nothing wrong with the 3.5's. The issue is SPECIFICALLY a 3rd party driver issue causing this. In the meantime, people are blacklisting the 3.5's because of a few morons that downloaded crap, installed crap and are now broken from their own ignorance and lack of technical know-how to isolate and fix their OWN problem.]


:lol:

Sorry, I know that wasn't meant as humour, but :lol: anyway!

Sometimes your point is so blunt that I can't help but agree completely. And then I picture these dumbasses doing exactly what you said.

[OtakingGX]

My question is how do people FIND these drivers? Wouldn't Joe Blow, knows nothing about computers, be lucky to even get the driver off the CD, much less find a 3rd party driver? I guess I can see some EQ player going and downloading a new driver because their buddy said it worked great. Then they find out they don't even own an ATI video card.

I don't use any 3rd party drivers and haven't since 3dfx dropped driver support of their cards. I do think it's a good thing that people can make their own drivers though, for said reason. If I didn't know much about computers I wouldn't dream of installing a nonstandard driver. Heck, I'd probably be content with the ones off the CD until I ran into a problem in a game. I don't think the drivers that came with my video card would have any trouble running the Sims though.

In the long run I can't see this actually hurting nVidia's bottom line. It'll just turn enthusiasts against them and they'll lose a few sales here and there.

[WedgieMan]

Originally posted by Mole
He looks like he'd fuck someone in the ass just to degrade them.:ugh:

Isn't that the only real reason for it?

[Apoch003]

Originally posted by WedgieMan


Isn't that the only real reason for it?

NO! And don't make me keeeellll j000000000!

[Ailuros]

Coming soon.

The new Omega soap opera named "Loaded Guns & Sodomy" :D

[Apoch003]

Speaking of Omega. I only ever see him at Rage or Driver heaven anymore. I think you guys spooked him or something.

[Ailuros]

Speak for yourself .....oooops LOL :D

[jaymind]

[Edit- I should also mention the HUGE list of people that can't even get a single OpenGL game to launch/run with the Catalyst 3.5's. There is nothing wrong with the 3.5's. The issue is SPECIFICALLY a 3rd party driver issue causing this. In the meantime, people are blacklisting the 3.5's because of a few morons that downloaded crap, installed crap and are now broken from their own ignorance and lack of technical know-how to isolate and fix their OWN problem.

You sure about this Shark? I was just reading on Rage3D from Cat Maker that ATI forgot to add in the 9100 series to the driver inf for OpenGL which was specifically causing this problem of some users not having OpenGL work. All the people I saw with complaints for OpenGL (On rage3D) were people with 9100 boards or 8500 modded to 9100 boards using stock cats from ATI's site.

If I've mis-understood this please let me know.

[sj_hurst]

What's the point of 3rd party drivers when official drivers are being released consistently? Besides, I've used Omega drivers when I was using teh V5 and I didn't like 'em compared to other 3rd party V5 drivers.

To the Nvidia bashers,
Former true fans of 3dfx buy Nvidia. Why? They have ex-3dfx employees workin' for 'em. 3dfx executives destroyed their company from within. The engineers weren't responsible and Nvidia wasn't responsible. Nvidia was just there to pick up the ball. True, their primary goal is profit (just like any other company, including ATI). But Nvidia is not teh debil. :P

Seriously though, buy whatever you want. I don't really care. I'd buy ATI too if I were in the market for a vid card right now. Just having some nostalgic memories of the age old Nvidia/3dfx flamewarz. ;)

[dryass]

whats the whole point of tweaking anyways? i used to be like that - tweak drivers, settings, overclock, etc... then i realised how useless it was to risk overhearting, fucked up window registrys, vioded warrenty's, and all the extra effort to get it stable.. all that for a lowsy 5-10 fps that you wont even pay attention to in the game..


with computer nowadays, i cant see how someone would want to overclock a 2ghz to a 2.8 ghz, or tweak a 9700 pro to a 9800 pro.. i mean, isn't it just rediculously fast enough as it is??

[sj_hurst]

Originally posted by dryass

with computer nowadays, i cant see how someone would want to overclock a 2ghz to a 2.8 ghz, or tweak a 9700 pro to a 9800 pro.. i mean, isn't it just rediculously fast enough as it is??

I agree because, overall, the software coming out these days is way behind what even average hardware is capable of.

[Simian]

Yes and no.

Games like Morrowind still require a hefty damn CPU and Videocard, and often times even with the most powerful systems, bring the setting up a notch and it falls to its knees.

[sj_hurst]

Overall, like I said, then it would be yes. I realize that there are exceptions. Personally, I tend to avoid games that ppl say run slow on top notch systems. I can't stand playing games like that, cuz well, they're barely playable (esp. on my mediocre system).

[Ailuros]

Originally posted by sj_hurst
What's the point of 3rd party drivers when official drivers are being released consistently? Besides, I've used Omega drivers when I was using teh V5 and I didn't like 'em compared to other 3rd party V5 drivers.

To the Nvidia bashers,
Former true fans of 3dfx buy Nvidia. Why? They have ex-3dfx employees workin' for 'em. 3dfx executives destroyed their company from within. The engineers weren't responsible and Nvidia wasn't responsible. Nvidia was just there to pick up the ball. True, their primary goal is profit (just like any other company, including ATI). But Nvidia is not teh debil. :P

Seriously though, buy whatever you want. I don't really care. I'd buy ATI too if I were in the market for a vid card right now. Just having some nostalgic memories of the age old Nvidia/3dfx flamewarz. ;)

I agree to most of it, apart from the part that former "true" (what defines true anyway?) 3dfx fans have switched to NVIDIA. Who the hell cares if amongst ~1000 people, about 100 3dfx former employess have been spread up, which by the way many of them are familiar to each other for years now working in different companies and the real experienced ones coming all from the SGI talent pool.

I personally am aware of more former 3dfx fans having ATI than NVIDIA hardware today. And you may pardon me if I don't consider the former 3dhq or whatever they were called crowd, as reasonable 3dfx fans either (with probably only a few exeptions). There you'll find much easier and to a much higher degree NVIDIA haters, which is an idiotic standpoint to start with.

I bought early last year f.e. the Ti4k4 because it was the better option IMO, and I personally never really cared if the brand on the box was Borgo Sphinxter or God knows what else, as long as it worked.

Where you personally see deliberate NVIDIA bashing in this thread is beyond me. In any case if it's a general feeling lately about NV, they seriously fucked up with the NV30, and they don't even shy away to admit these days in public either.

Just listen to that one here:

http://www.veracast.com/webcasts/twp/growth-forum-2003/79405386.cfm

It'll only be a matter of time when they'll disregard the entire NV3x line, once they're back on track.

Is the criticism justified? Of course it is. When a company asks for a product over 400$ at launch, they'd better deliver and deliver on time. If the competition should be in a better position in price/performance than even more.

I suggest you go and read Kyle's latest 5900 non Ultra review; there's even a 5900Ultra and a 9800PRO thrown into the mix. And to be completely honest with you, would they have on those things at least 4xRGMS, I wouldn't hesitate buying a vanilla 5900 for a second.

Sorry for the long rant ;)

PS: all of it is of course irrelevant to the Omega incident; I tend to agree with Sharkfood here.

[Ailuros]

Originally posted by dryass
whats the whole point of tweaking anyways? i used to be like that - tweak drivers, settings, overclock, etc... then i realised how useless it was to risk overhearting, fucked up window registrys, vioded warrenty's, and all the extra effort to get it stable.. all that for a lowsy 5-10 fps that you wont even pay attention to in the game..


with computer nowadays, i cant see how someone would want to overclock a 2ghz to a 2.8 ghz, or tweak a 9700 pro to a 9800 pro.. i mean, isn't it just rediculously fast enough as it is??

If it would be result into just a minor increase it wouldn't be worth it, that's true.

From the hardware side of things, let's say I want a 9800PRO but can't afford it. If I buy though a 9700PRO and am able to overclock it to 9800PRO levels, than I just saved myself about a 100bucks as a very simple example.

On the current system I gain alone from upping the fsb from 133 to 166MHz about 10% extra performance, where the CPU would run at the same clock rate as on default. Now add to that a 200MHz overclock of the clockspeed, a 10%/18% increase in the GPU's core/memory speeds and a couple of driver optimisations through third party tweaking utilities and I really don't know how much higher performance is, than having everything on default.

There's a thing called greed in 3D gaming. Say you can run game X fairly in resolution A, with settings B. There you try out a bit more aggressive settings and find out that it's a no-no. If you succeed being able to cope through overclocks/tweaks, then I don't see a reason against it, as long as you're really aware of what you're doing.

I personally might not touch 3rd party drivers anyway, but I am "guilty" of becoming a victim more than often of said greed. To be even more specific on default my score with my usual settings I get in SS:SE ~57fps in 1024x768x32. After all the shiznit above applied it goes up to ~72fps in 1024x768x32 and ~62fps in 1152x864x32; and that even in a CPU bound demo.

[sj_hurst]

I was only goofin' around with that one. I didn't suspect that anyone would take it that seriously while I was writing it, but that's ok. At least your reponse is informative.

[dryass]

Originally posted by Ailuros


If it would be result into just a minor increase it wouldn't be worth it, that's true.

From the hardware side of things, let's say I want a 9800PRO but can't afford it. If I buy though a 9700PRO and am able to overclock it to 9800PRO levels, than I just saved myself about a 100bucks as a very simple example.

On the current system I gain alone from upping the fsb from 133 to 166MHz about 10% extra performance, where the CPU would run at the same clock rate as on default. Now add to that a 200MHz overclock of the clockspeed, a 10%/18% increase in the GPU's core/memory speeds and a couple of driver optimisations through third party tweaking utilities and I really don't know how much higher performance is, than having everything on default.

There's a thing called greed in 3D gaming. Say you can run game X fairly in resolution A, with settings B. There you try out a bit more aggressive settings and find out that it's a no-no. If you succeed being able to cope through overclocks/tweaks, then I don't see a reason against it, as long as you're really aware of what you're doing.

I personally might not touch 3rd party drivers anyway, but I am "guilty" of becoming a victim more than often of said greed. To be even more specific on default my score with my usual settings I get in SS:SE ~57fps in 1024x768x32. After all the shiznit above applied it goes up to ~72fps in 1024x768x32 and ~62fps in 1152x864x32; and that even in a CPU bound demo.

i guess it is greed... i guess im just one of those people that finds 57fps in a first person shooter more then enough. because i dont play games enough to really justifty all the voiding of my warranties just for the extra boost that i will never use/hardly see in a game - if i find my system crawling to its knees, then i try lowering the settings abit, if it stills crawls, then thats the sign of upgrading - some people get 60fps in a demo and they automatically want a 9800 pro... the hardware review sites out there has filled gamers brain that anything below 90fps is horrible - thats probably one of the reasons why i never look at those sites anymore, because i got sick of them telling me what "below standard" when i know what i need and what is reasonable to me

oh well, now im rambling :ggowned:

[SirPauly]

Kinda with Ibanez/Dryass to a large degree when the subject is frame-rate.

After 3d cards hit 60 -- it has been about the over-all quality of the frame rendered instead of just a number on a screen or in a graph. When a number is on a graph, well, I try to figure out what would the numbers be with a more apples to apples IQ comparison. Ignore most of the opinions of commercial sites cause most are clueless or may have an agenda. Ignore the opinion of any company's PR because they do have an agenda, hehe!:) As long as the frame-rate never drops below 35-40 in the tougher areas......it is good enough for me if the image quality is amazing for it's time.

Sj_hurst,

Agree with many of the things you offered except the true fans of 3dfx should buy nVidia because of the former 3dfx engineers. The problem with this to me is, well, these former 3dfx engineers are being told what to do by nVidia executives.

3dfx lived and died offering their high quality rotated grid AA to the gamer many years ago....amazing quality and still not realized today in nVidia products and in the near future with the 5900. Why? nVidia's executives.:)

3dfx destroyed 3dfx. nVidia has to do what they have to do and not Evil, but, this doesn't mean you can't speak out about it and discuss it, fairly. A cheap-shot is when you bash with nothing but wind, being critical and offering details and facts is not bashing in my mind. They make world-class hardware over-all -- no one is disputing that but their PR offers nothing but bull-shit though and why I am so critical at times.

Times haven't changed too much and usually there is two different type gamers, imho:

1) The gamer that craves more speed and will sacrifice some IQ for more speed.

2) The gamer that craves more IQ and will sacrifice some speed.

I am a 2 gamer. Even though I have the fastest 3d card on the planet at this time -- all I care about is truly averaging around 60/70 and immersive image quality. Pour on the heavy IQ settings; a gamers' dream, imho. Really believe in the quality of pixel sillyness than anything else but this is very subjective due to so many eyes are so different.

[Ailuros]

What warranties? Those parts that I "endager" in relative terms with rather conservative overclocks usually don't stay longer in my system than a year or a 1 1/2 year tops.

some people get 60fps in a demo and they automatically want a 9800 pro... the hardware review sites out there has filled gamers brain that anything below 90fps is horrible - thats probably one of the reasons why i never look at those sites anymore, because i got sick of them telling me what "below standard" when i know what i need and what is reasonable to me

I think you didn't get my former point at all. The game in the above example is somewhat like that:

All@default= 1152x864x32 2xAA/8xAF = barely playable

Oc'ed/optimized = 1152x864x32 2xAA/8xAF = playable

Would I buy a 3000+ Barton and 9800PRO, those settings would be in 1600x1200x32 a piece of cake.

My spare time is extremely limited (don't pay attention to my constant posting here, most of it is at work anyway); wouldn't the gains be at least noticable I wouldn't even bother.

However said "greed" would set in even with a ultra high end system within today's standards. I don't see a reason why I should not push a system to it's limits (always with conservative means I don't use any crap like watercooling or the likes), since I can.

Finally I'm still sitting on an overclocked XP2200+ and a oc'ed Ti4400; that's a below mainstream system for today's standards ;)

[Sharkfood]

You sure about this Shark? I was just reading on Rage3D from Cat Maker that ATI forgot to add in the 9100 series to the driver inf for OpenGL which was specifically causing this problem of some users not having OpenGL work.

A 9100 that has had nothing but ATI drivers has OpenGL working just fine.

There ARE also a plethora of non-9100/8500 owners complaining of the same issue.

The problem involves 3rd party drivers and a 3rd party refresh tool. Without either of these, the 3.5's work beautiful/perfect.

[jaymind]

About the OC'ing. I only OC those parts in my comp that I can afford to replace. Hence, why I have my $65 XP2100 OC to 2.2GHZ with a 166FSB (stable with stock cooling) and my $110 Ti4400 OC a little past TI4600 speeds.

I only OC if I'm going to get a good enough return on the risk and if I can afford to replace the part - "Yes honey, my video card just up and died on me. Oh, yes the video card I want is $350. What a shame my old onne died though, isn't it. Oh, yes they ALL cost that much." :)